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steve004 said
The M1876 routinely came with a full magazine. A half magazine would have been special order. The vast majority of M1876’s that were made had full magazines.
Is this a general 1876 statement? As the 50-95 was roughly 50-50 between full tube and 1/2 magazine. Routinely published numbers for the Express show of the roughly 3,300 made, 1,530(ish) were 1/2 magazine. So that is why I was trying to understand why the short magazine would be an unusual feature. The ad for the auction says the barrel was special ordered, which it might have been, but roughly 1/3 of Express were 26” octagon barrels. The CCH is much less common, at around 20% of all Express, but not uncommon at this percentage. Maybe the total package all together is less common. It’s beyond my knowledge. Still learning. But was wondering about the magazine. Thanks for the information.
Another Winchester with a “story and an explanation”, re case color no letter etc.,and it would be a hard sell to a hard ass Winchester collector, for big bucks
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
JustinG said
Is this a general 1876 statement? As the 50-95 was roughly 50-50 between full tube and 1/2 magazine. Routinely published numbers for the Express show of the roughly 3,300 made, 1,530(ish) were 1/2 magazine. So that is why I was trying to understand why the short magazine would be an unusual feature. The ad for the auction says the barrel was special ordered, which it might have been, but roughly 1/3 of Express were 26” octagon barrels. The CCH is much less common, at around 20% of all Express, but not uncommon at this percentage. Maybe the total package all together is less common. It’s beyond my knowledge. Still learning. But was wondering about the magazine. Thanks for the information.
I would stick to my comment that the vast majority of M1876’s have full magazines. As you point out, this is not so true of those chambered in 50-95. However by, “special order” I meant that if you were to order any M1876 (including the 50-95), if you wanted a half-magazine, you had to tell the factory that (i.e. special order it that way). If you made no mention of any magazine preference, you would be shipped a rifle with a full magazine. As usual, I’m open to be proven wrong. Being proven wrong is an effective way to refine ones’ base of knowledge.
This gun has many things that when you put them together they don’t add up. The caliber stamp on the elevator with the ghost stamps and it does not fit the receiver like it should pointing to its a replacement or has a lot more wear than the gun shows. The case color has been helped in some way. There is color in areas that normally would not have it given the amount of pitting and usage. The metal finish of the forearm cap does not look right. The whole gun has been dissembled including the dust cover rail which normally is not necessary.
The barrel looks good to me. A Cody search is a must with any gun that is beyond a standard gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Another comment… 1/2 magazines were not a “special” order feature. Instead, they were a no cost “optional” order. Some calibers were very frequently pre-made or ordered in batches with 1/2 magazines, namely the 50-95s with a 22-inch round barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
steve004 said
However by, “special order” I meant that if you were to order any M1876 (including the 50-95), if you wanted a half-magazine, you had to tell the factory that (i.e. special order it that way).
That’s right–the factory wouldn’t be able to read the buyer’s mind, so he would have to say how he wanted his order put together differently from “standard.” There are scores of options available on a new car, but if you specify what you want & have it built that way, rather than buying off the lot, you’d be entitled to say it was a “special order,” wouldn’t you? I understand the distinction Bert has made about the difference between catalogued options & dreaming up something not listed in the catalog, but that’s a very narrow (too narrow, I think) definition of “special order.”
I am surprised no one had mentioned the dust cover. The stamping on it looks like a child did it. Look at the number 5. Overall, too many things add up to turn me away.
Chris
A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...
Aussie Chris said
I am surprised no one had mentioned the dust cover. The stamping on it looks like a child did it. Look at the number 5. Overall, too many things add up to turn me away.Chris
I agree with you. The 5 does look wrong. Also the L in CAL looks wrong as well. So, we have suspect markings on the elevator, suspect markings on the dust cover and no letter. Not to mention the case color. One really does wonder what the entire story is behind this rifle.
clarence said
steve004 said
However by, “special order” I meant that if you were to order any M1876 (including the 50-95), if you wanted a half-magazine, you had to tell the factory that (i.e. special order it that way).That’s right–the factory wouldn’t be able to read the buyer’s mind, so he would have to say how he wanted his order put together differently from “standard.” There are scores of options available on a new car, but if you specify what you want & have it built that way, rather than buying off the lot, you’d be entitled to say it was a “special order,” wouldn’t you? I understand the distinction Bert has made about the difference between catalogued options & dreaming up something not listed in the catalog, but that’s a very narrow (too narrow, I think) definition of “special order.”
This is turning into a bit of a mind-bending discussion – quite enjoyable. The other term to throw in is, “extras.” Extras was a term Winchester used in catalogs. Extras are similar to options (not a term I recall they used) but the difference being you paid for extras but you didn’t pay for options. However, I would contend extras or options were, “special order” as you had to specify what you wanted. For example, wouldn’t we all consider a circa 1916 M1894 carbine shipped with a half magazine and shotgun butt – “special order”? In this example no, “extras” are provided as both the half magazine and the shotgun butt (either metal or rubber) “can be furnished… at same price.” Conversely, if a person ordered a M1894 carbine in .30 WCF – and mentioned nothing else, they would ship the standard offering (with full magazine and carbine butt).
Back to the M1876, I suspect that if a buyer ordered one in .50-95 and offered no other instructions, that rifle would arrive with a 26 inch barrel. Any other chambering, it would arrive with a 28 inch barrel. And presumably both would arrive with a round barrel given octagon barrels cost more (and were the same price as half octagon barrels). Perhaps an exception would be the Express rifles made for the, “English market.” I wouldn’t be surprised if groups of them were shipped with 22 inch barrels and half magazines to dealers over there for sale in stores.
Aussie Chris said
I am surprised no one had mentioned the dust cover. The stamping on it looks like a child did it. Look at the number 5. Overall, too many things add up to turn me away.Chris
I don’t think the dust cover is wrong. It looks like the one I have. 5’s on mine are similar and not everything is straight and perfect.
The truth may or may not lie in the Factory Ledgers. But I’m not going to waste one of my free ones on this gun.
I pulled my Express out of the safe and took a couple photos of some of the areas that may be in doubt on the Express rifle up at auction. Not sure if these will be of any help. Mine is in the 27,xxx series and listed as:
Type: Rifle
Caliber: Express
Barrel type: Octagon
Trigger: Plain
Received and shipped September 23, 1882
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill your dust cover looks like mine and I still say the one in question is OK. Many other things are not though. It always leads me to think what is the seller hiding when they don’t have a Letter on a gun like this??? I guess I have gotten like this after about 40 yrs. of hearing and seeing all of the horror stories.
I have an original well used dust cover in my parts and after comparing the two, they are the same, with the same die flaws. The 5 is the way Winchester cut that die. T/R
I’m with the recent posts on this. Here’s one I found on Gunsinternational. The 5’s look the same:
Good info re the dust covers, thanks gents!
A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...
Aussie Chris said
Good info re the dust covers, thanks gents!
You never know where these threads will end up. Great collection of detectives here 
I’m surprised no one doing a 76 survey has chimed in yet. I don’t keep my database up like I use to, but that said.
Two serial numbers off #14105 has identical features as this rifle. It was sold at Julia’s in 2007/2008 time frame.
I would agree the gun in question has been disassembled in the past, but that goes for a lot of guns. Other than the stock markings, all the other markings look good to me. The only remaining item is the condition / finish of the rifle. And I’m not going to offer an opinion on that. To each their own.
Photography can definitely make the finish of a gun look quite different than it actually is. I’d want to see it in person either way.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. If I had the spare change, I’d throw my hat in the ring.
P.P.S. I promise I’m not anyone’s Shill!
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
I’m surprised no one doing a 76 survey has chimed in yet. I don’t keep my database up like I use to, but that said.Two serial numbers off #14105 has identical features as this rifle. It was sold at Julia’s in 2007/2008 time frame.
I would agree the gun in question has been disassembled in the past, but that goes for a lot of guns. Other than the stock markings, all the other markings look good to me. The only remaining item is the condition / finish of the rifle. And I’m not going to offer an opinion on that. To each their own.
Photography can definitely make the finish of a gun look quite different than it actually is. I’d want to see it in person either way.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. If I had the spare change, I’d throw my hat in the ring.
P.P.S. I promise I’m not anyone’s Shill!
Maverick –
I appreciate your comments. What is your opinion on the elevator stamping?
Here is a study of the auction rifle #14103, #14105, & Bill’s Rifle.
Looks like the first two are identical, and Bill’s Rifle is different. I would conclude that Bill’s Rifle was cut using a different stamp than the earlier two.
But I do find the first rifle’s markings a little odd. Almost as if the stamp bounced and left the shadow mark. But who really knows?
I don’t know if the factory used individual stamps for the marking of the calibers early on, as I doubt they were individually engraved. The last caliber marking looks a like a more uniform stamping.
My humble opinion, take it or leave it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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