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It may be "Almost a Ranch" but it is certainly TOTAL bullshit!!!
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April 25, 2017 - 10:26 pm
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Eagle said
Along the same lines as what is going on in this auction, is another auction from a well known seller who appears to be very professional and knows his stuff…I thought. Take a look at this auction, read the description where it says ” The wood to metal fit is tight and proud.” Then take a look at pictures 13, 27, 34, 64, 65, 70, 74, 75, 76, & 85 and tell me if you think the wood is “tight and proud”. I would say that a majority of folks that buy on GB are inexperienced and/or simply don’t care nor do they want to learn. I sent a note to the seller in this auction when it came up. No changes, no response…… 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/637022822  

Eagle,

The wood note description is a bit sloppy for someone like this seller, given that he could have said the wood to metal fit is tight and proud, for the most part, with wear showing mostly at the wrist and toe of the buttstock.  It would be my assumption that “tight” in this case as in many such situations means that there is no-play between the two, rather than meaning “flush” to the metal.  That said, on the whole, his descriptions as a norm could easily be educational for a lot of people who might be trying to learn, which is a far cry from the subject seller that is being discussed.

James

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April 25, 2017 - 11:05 pm
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James, I respectfully disagree with your analysis here. Chayns could have said a lot of things, but he didn’t. He has also had a chance to add to his description to maybe correct his mistake/sloppiness, but didn’t. That wood below the metal, at the wrist and the butt plate is not wear, it’s been sanded to that point somewhere down the line, and I will assume that the entire butt stock has been refinished also. This is not the first time I have seen chayns do this. I might not call it fraudulent, but deceptive and not right, especially when he knows better. Is it as bad as the ranch folks? Of course not, but still not right by any means in my opinion.

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April 25, 2017 - 11:46 pm
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Eagle said
James, I respectfully disagree with your analysis here. Chayns could have said a lot of things, but he didn’t. He has also had a chance to add to his description to maybe correct his mistake/sloppiness, but didn’t. That wood below the metal, at the wrist and the butt plate is not wear, it’s been sanded to that point somewhere down the line, and I will assume that the entire butt stock has been refinished also. This is not the first time I have seen chayns do this. I might not call it fraudulent, but deceptive and not right, especially when he knows better. Is it as bad as the ranch folks? Of course not, but still not right by any means in my opinion.  

Eagle, you “specifically addressed the subject of wood to metal fit…not originality”.  If the stock is original to the gun it is going to have some wear to it, whether or not it has been sanded.  I think it is safe to assume that if the wrist was sanded, then the rest of the buttstock has been refinished as you point out too.  I do believe the important thing is that we both made points that are educational to those people trying to learn more…just like we like to do.

My respects to you as well.

James

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April 26, 2017 - 12:05 am
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Eagle,

I’m with you on the ethics part.  On the point of better describing firearms that go up for sale, some folks for example, perhaps most, will not point out that they might have changed out the sights or that the buttplate was replaced, should either be the case.

James

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April 26, 2017 - 2:26 am
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I rather like that GB 92 linked a few posts up, a bit rich for my blood but I like it. Pics are well done and it appears to be a nice, solid rifle IMHO.

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April 26, 2017 - 1:45 pm
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And just in case you thought that MAYBE Gunbroker cared about the misrepresentation of guns on their website I posted a link to this conversation on the “Ask The Experts” forum supported by them.  The title was “Why does Gunbroker Support Fraud?”   Oh surprise!!  Today it is gone!!!ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused

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April 26, 2017 - 1:53 pm
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twobit said
And just in case you thought that MAYBE Gunbroker cared about the misrepresentation of guns on their website I posted a link to this conversation on the “Ask The Experts” forum supported by them.  The title was “Why does Gunbroker Support Fraud?”   Oh surprise!!  Today it is gone!!!ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused

Michael  

What gun are we talking about?  The SCREAMER WINCHESTER is still listed????  http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/640255866

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April 26, 2017 - 2:18 pm
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Wincacher said

twobit said
And just in case you thought that MAYBE Gunbroker cared about the misrepresentation of guns on their website I posted a link to this conversation on the “Ask The Experts” forum supported by them.  The title was “Why does Gunbroker Support Fraud?”   Oh surprise!!  Today it is gone!!!ConfusedConfusedConfusedConfusedConfused

Michael  

What gun are we talking about?  The SCREAMER WINCHESTER is still listed????  http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/640255866  

Wincacher,

What twobit is saying is his post on the Gunbroker “Ask The Experts” forum titled “Why does Gunbroker Support Fraud?” was deleted.  The fraudulent gun posting by “Almost A Ranch” is still there and Gunbroker isn’t going to do crap about it.  That basically says it all, Gunbroker is just as greedy and dishonest as the seller.

Don

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April 26, 2017 - 2:50 pm
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Thanks for the clarification.  That makes more sense and certainly supports what we all suspect about GunBroker’s integrity.  Perhaps we could hear from Bert H on this as he is a moderator on both forums.

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April 26, 2017 - 3:06 pm
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I am surprised folks don’t ever learn. Basically, avoid Gunbroker, with FEW EXCEPTIONS!!! Gunbroker is an excellent way for a seller to weed out junk, or sell fraudulent merchandise.

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April 26, 2017 - 3:27 pm
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Some of you apparently have a misunderstanding of Gunbroker’s forums…

This may not go over well with some of you, but please hear me out;

First, the Forums are a completely separate entity from the Auction side. Nothing that you post on the forums will ever be seen or reviewed by the “Auction” business side of Gunbroker. There are specific links for reporting issues/fraud, etc. on the Auction site… not the Forums.

Second, what Michael did with his post was a violation of the Gunbroker’s posted Forum rules – http://forums.gunbroker.com/PostingGuidelines.asp (which is why his post was deleted).

Lastly, the staff on the Forums side of Gunbroker (myself included) has NO influence what-so-ever on the Auction/Business side of Gunbroker. As a whole, we are all volunteers who were selected based on our ability to effectively and fairly moderate the forums. We can NOT intervene in any Auction business or complaints. Therefore, all such posts will be deleted as they serve no useful purpose, and they can quickly become negative detractors to the overall purpose of the forums (I know, I am starting to sound like a politician/lawyer).

In regards to Gunbroker’s Auction side, they will respond to reports of Fraud, but only if it is from someone who is a registered user on the Auction side, and only when that person takes the time and effort to write a verifiable complaint. This requires some reasonable effort from You the User. If you can not substantiate your complaint, it becomes a “He said”, “She said” argument, and Gunbroker is always going to side with the side who is making them $$. Now, and having said all of that, I have (in the past), filed several legitimate Fraud complaints, and in each case, Gunbroker’s Auction site staff has taken appropriate action. In the end, it is up to the Users (buyer & sellers) on Gunbroker to “police” the listings. In my opinion, it is very unreasonable and unrealistic to expect a relatively small staff of people (computer geeks at that) to actively & aggressively verify the several thousand listings that get posted (or reposted) on a daily basis. They simply do not have the expertise, or the time to accomplish that task.

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April 26, 2017 - 3:40 pm
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Thanks for the elucidation, Bert.  Could you give us the link to reporting such fraud?  All I could find was a link for a buyer reporting a fraud perpetrated upon him (and that appears to be good only for the buyer not having received the item paid for) which requires the buyer to first contact the seller.  I couldn’t find a link where a registered user can report a fraudulent misrepresentation of an item currently up for auction.

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April 26, 2017 - 4:08 pm
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deerhunter said 

…That basically says it all, Gunbroker is just as greedy and dishonest as the seller.

Don  

Doubt that individuals with high ethical standards last long in the auction racket. Maybe there are rare exceptions, but not many. 

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April 26, 2017 - 4:54 pm
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Please look at the penultimate line on GunBroker’s “Fine Print” on their Fraud Claim Page, which is only for buyers who think they have been defrauded.  They clearly state that if the seller has misrepresented a gun they will side with the seller and the buyer is SOL.  That is tantamount to encouraging fraud.

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April 26, 2017 - 5:10 pm
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Wow…basically a fancy way of telling you, as a buyer, you’re screwed!!!  Even charge you a $100 deductible to tell you so.

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April 26, 2017 - 5:10 pm
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Wincacher said
They clearly state that if the seller has misrepresented a gun they will side with the seller and the buyer is SOL.  That is tantamount to encouraging fraud.
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And so tell me why, under these conditions, one would EVER conduct a Gunbroker transaction.

Ebay had better terms. Of it was a source of revenue for them, not sure why they gave up on allowing the sale of firearms?  How long ago did they ban firearms sales?

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April 26, 2017 - 5:42 pm
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mrcvs said

And so tell me why, under these conditions, one would EVER conduct a Gunbroker transaction.  
 
Ebay had better terms. Of it was a source of revenue for them, not sure why they gave up on allowing the sale of firearms?  How long ago did they ban firearms sales?  

1st question:  Because gun shows, with only a few exceptions, have gone to hell in a handbasket.  (One of the main reasons for that being GB and other auction sites, where it’s so much easier to deceive the buyer–a vicious circle if there ever was one!)

2nd question:  Must have been before Jan. of 1999 when I joined (after I acquired my first computer).  At ebay, PC is more important than revenue–which is why they banned magazines, and won’t allow the sale of ANY gun part, even a 200 yr old antique, unless the seller checks the “no foreign sales” box. 

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April 26, 2017 - 5:54 pm
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I have sold and purchased many item’s on GB. (several hundred transactions selling (mostly parts) and about 50 purchasing) I can proudly say in all my transactions I have A+ feedback. I take the time to do quality photo’s of my items and reply to all questions promptly, no question as to what the buyer is receiving.  In only one instance was I dissatisfied with a purchase. The sellers photo’s were of poor quality so I contacted him with specific questions. He replied with answers I wanted to hear. I bought the rifle and when it was received it was way different than described and questioned. Made contact with the seller, described my concerns with the items in question and he refunded my full purchase price. With all this being said, Don’t belittle the auction site as I have found it a very useful tool. The site is there to connect buyers and sellers, nothing more, you choose who you want to do business with. Simply scrutinize your item of interest and if you see obvious descrepencie’s move on to the next one. Confront the seller—–not the site. A few bad apples have a way for people to surmise the whole barrel is rotten. Just my opinion and experiences with GB.

 

Erin

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April 26, 2017 - 6:15 pm
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Yes, we’ve read this from “her” before.  Or, we are all sharing the same deja vu.

She was also in this one:  https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/the-amount-of-refinished-fabricated-guns-is-getting-old/#p54895

“Hi there,

Thank you for your comments.
I will correct the caliber listed later today.
I will contacted the owner about the gun having a number on receiver and being refinished.
He is the owner and writes the descriptions as I am not qualified.
I do the listings, shipping  and and complete the balance of the sale.
Thank you 
Lisa”
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April 26, 2017 - 6:38 pm
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Bert Wrote:  Second, what Michael did with his post was a violation of the Gunbroker’s posted Forum rules – http://forums.gunbroker.com/PostingGuidelines.asp (which is why his post was deleted).!  

Sorry for playing outside the chalk lines.  I promise not to do it again.

Erin wrote:  Confront the seller—–not the site. A few bad apples have a way for people to surmise the whole barrel is rotten. Just my opinion and experiences with GB.

I also have sold items on GB and have no complaints.  I have also bought several items there and have no complaints.  My only comment is that when a seller is repeatedly found to blatantly misrepresent items there should be some recourse by them.  But. I am also enough of a realist to recognize that the can of legal worms could be just waiting to be opened.  We are all big kids here playing in this sand box and it is truly up to us to put in the work and effort to be knowledgeable of what we are purchasing.  I am certainly more than happy to point out problems when I find them.  That is why I point out the value of saving photos of rifles we put into our surveys.  That sort of proof is hard to argue against.  

Regarding the legal “can of worms” is WACA willing to take a position and then post a list of “suspected/known fraudulent sellers as we point them out?

Michael

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