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Hi guys,
If there was ever any doubt about the BS this guy puts out there and the authenticity of the guns he sells this pretty much seals the deal. I saw this rifle on Gunbroker in November 2014 and saved photos of it. But somehow in a small time warp the owner bought the gun in the 50’s and it has spent the last +60 years in that guys vault to only surface now as part of the never ending INCREDIBLE COLLECTION that is always being sold. What outright lies. Now here the rifle is again and without the previous social security number engraved on the left side of the receiver yet somehow this guy claims that it has “Factory overall bluing is 90 percent with some fading” And apparently the seller just happens to never mention the two screw holes for the peep sight as if they don’t exist. http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/640255866
Here are the original photos of the rifle from 2014:
This is not the first time I have documented this seller doing the same thing with other rifles. I believe he knowingly sells altered guns and this is not a case of “oops, I did not realize that”
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Online
Yep, one more example of the BS guns and story offered by that seller. Thanks for posting and tracking that stuff.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
I notice they don’t have an FFL or C&R license. I would have to say that they are “engaged” in the business of selling guns.
I have often wondered how they, and others, get away with having a business of selling firearms and not having an FFL. Maybe someone can enlighten us. Peter
Interesting that someone went to all that trouble to “restore” a carbine and misrepresent it as being original, but then doesn’t know what caliber it is. Never heard of Model 1892’s being available in 32-40.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher said
Interesting that someone went to all that trouble to “restore” a carbine and misrepresent it as being original, but then doesn’t know what caliber it is. Never heard of Model 1892’s being available in 32-40.
Oh let’s not let a little detail or two confuse or stand in the way of a good fraud job!!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I don’t know how these people can live with themselves. What an outright lie!
It’s been going on since the dawn of time. Even back in the 60’s there were morons filling holes, and changing serial numbers. Even engraving a nice Henry or M66 just to get more $$$$. I too was a victim as I bought what appeared to be a mint M65 in 218 Bee. Later, I was shown how to see the plugged holes by shining a powerful Maglight on the receiver. Boy, did those plugged holes stand out. Older and wiser now, I am a bit more careful when buying guns.
Keep on writing when you see these fakers and let everyone know. Like the clown from Sparta TN. that makes great S&W box repro’s and sells them for original NOS. They are practically undetectable. Funny thing about these fakers, even when caught, they still do a brisk business. Big Larry
I believe if someone presented the documented evidence (which you fella’s possess) of the refinished firearms to the BATFE and described how they are running a fraudulent firearms BUSINESS of restored firearms, advertised as original I think they would be all over them like green flies on a fresh manure pile. Too many people are getting ripped off by these folks and need to be stopped. The evidence is in your possession, use it to end this atrocity. I am certainly glad that it is brought to our attention here, however complaining about it amongst ourselves unfortunately won’t cure the problem. A phone call must be made and evidence presented to stop the forgery’s. This is just my opinion on how it should be handled.
Erin
I’ve sold one Winchester, via a WACA friend, on Gunbroker…otherwise, I just use it for reference…okay, and some drooling practice. Can’t imagine that Gunbroker would want this kind of blatant fraud on their site, if made aware with good evidence like Two Bit’s….anyone have experience with what comes of reporting this to them? Seems like a simple link to this thread would be enough!?!
WACA Member #304
I made three calls to ATF in regards to this type of situation…ie, in the obvious business of selling guns with no FFL license. They are very aware that this type of thing goes on, all over the US, but seem very reluctant to try to file a case because they say the laws are a bit vague and it would be hard to prove lots of things like, are they selling there own private collection etc. One of the people I talked to said he has lost 2 case against people like this so gave up, as a lot of them have. Seems like BS to me. I know what the law says, and, in my opinion, it is not that vague. If it is, fix it! As far as criminal activity, I think someone who has been scammed by them would have to file a case in regards to that. Peter
I don’t have any experience with BTAFE but it seems to me that since a modern gun is not being represented as an antique they wouldn’t have any interest in the matter. I would think that they are only interested in regulating the commerce in firearms to ensure that the existing laws and regulations are being followed and refinishing or restoring is not illegal.
As to Gunbroker, I’ve seen anecdotal evidence that they won’t do anything either. “The seller of this item assumes all responsibility for this listing.” There’s no commission on $ 0.
A suggestion is to approach the seller with the information and see if he withdraws the item. He claims to be a third party in this transaction and is only repeating what he has been told though we all know better. (“Owners bought from original owner in the 50s. Consignor never shot the Carbine – just kept in oiled.“)
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Message sent to seller:
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Simply put, the sellers could care less……It’s all about the money to them.
What will end people doing stuff like this is when they get sued for fraud. Most people if they return it and get their money back consider themselves lucky and go on to the next bad deal but it takes a rare person to teach them a lesson in court.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
The high bidder is a seller on Gun Broker & is out of Texas. A person can send him a message & tell him he is bidding on a gun that is being misrepresented. Or, maybe he knows this & does not care.
Wincacher said
Message sent to seller:
I too sent an e-mail mail this morning to the seller along with a link to this forum thread. Of course, no response…
Don
I actually received a response, though it doesn’t say much:
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5:31 PM (1 hour ago)
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Sent from my iPad
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
lund2075 said
The high bidder is a seller on Gun Broker & is out of Texas. A person can send him a message & tell him he is bidding on a gun that is being misrepresented. Or, maybe he knows this & does not care.
Great idea. I just sent the high bidder an email with a link to this forum thread.
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