Will one of the posters add some detail on the exact points that show the refinish? From those tiny pictures from a distance I can’t tell anything for sure? Just a couple of details that show the refinish please.

Austin has really hit on the key things for this rifle.

Generally speaking (not specific to this rifle), I am looking at the following things as telltale signs of rebluing:

1. Abnormally pristine bluing finish.  This isn’t a dead giveaway, but it is certainly something to make me look closer.  There are very few 100 year old rifles out there which still look brand new.  There are some, but when I see it, that pristine finish is often the first hint of a restoration job.
2. Metal finish doesn’t match stock wear. This is a frequent telltale sign of a reblue job, where a stock shows plenty of evidence of handling and honest wear, but the metal is not consistent with the stock wear.  You can see some of this on this rifle, where the butt stock has some vintage scratches, but the metal has none.
3. Wrong color of bluing.  Many people can reblue, but often their tanks/salts do a poor job replicating Winchester’s original color.
4. Poor metal prep.  Sanding leaves a “grain” to the metal – tiny scratches in the direction of the sanding.  The original parts were mostly machine sanded, and always in a consistent direction. Austin pointed out the sanding marks on this gun.  The metal prep here is poorly done.  In this case, some of the sanding goes in the wrong direction when compared to the factory “grain”.  Some of it is clearly hand done (not straight lines) when the factory sanding is always perfectly straight.  An even more common sight is metal which has been buffed prior to bluing, when in reality Winchester did this on very few parts ever.  Also, hand sanding tends to slightly round corners, make flat surfaces slightly wavy, remove the crispness of the original roll stamps, etc.  These are all things to look for as telltale signs of poor metal prep.
5. Rebluing of parts not normally blued.  Sometimes there are obvious mistakes, but other times it is some very subtle items such as bluing inside the W-P proof mark.  You won’t be able to see this in an online photo, but I carry a small jewelers eye loupe to look closely at these areas.  You can also sometimes see bluing over obvious tool marks, wear marks, etc.
6. Unnatural wear.  This rifle has had some edge wear created by sanding or buffing the fresh bluing off the high points of the gun.  While edge wear comes with normal use of a gun, this doesn’t normally happen on all parts of the gun equally.  On a repeating rifle, usually we would see the bottom of the action with more wear than the top (from carrying).  In this case we see the top, sides and bottom all worn equally.
7. Absent patina.  Speaking of the edge wear – anywhere the bluing is missing on a 100 year old rifle, there will be hints of patina.  It may not be full blown brown, but it won’t be bright “white” edges everywhere the bluing is missing.  Decades of oils and acids from the hands, as well as cleaning solvents, moisture, etc. will always leave some amount of discoloration on the metal.  On this rifle, all the edge wear is perfectly bright white, which is evidence of fresh steel being exposed after the bluing was completed.

At times, there are good reasons to reblue a vintage rifle.  Generally this is when (for whatever reason) the collector value is already gone.  In these cases, I don’t fault a gun owner for doing a complete restoration.  However, it seems that more often than not the owner then tries to pass the thing off as a “very scarce”, “new” or “barely used” and “highly collectible” firearm, when in reality it is none of those things.  They are taking advantage of people who love old guns but may not be familiar enough with fraudulent restorations to be aware of the above telltale signs of restoration.  It’s a significant problem, particularly with online sellers.

As in all things – buying vintage Winchester rifles is a “buyer beware” situation.

Justin

Thanks for the detailed analysis!

cranky2 said
I’m not so sure the seller knows.

To begin with it’s a she not a he.

I called to ask about a rifle a couple of weeks ago and she didn’t even know what she had.  

I can concur.  I did not realize who the seller was until you mentioned this, Cranky2.  

I spoke with this lady several months ago with a question about a rifle she had listed (a pre-64 Super Grade model 70 in .257 Roberts).  The stock was inletted for a side-mount scope, but the receiver was not drilled.  This is pretty solid evidence the rifle was not actually a Super Grade, but rather .257 metal stuffed into a Super Grade stock.  There were other hints of problems with the “Super Grade” status of this rifle as well.

I called Lisa to let her know the rifle was not a Super Grade and that the listing was misleading at best, and at worst fraudulent.  She actually had no idea about the rifles she had listed.  She also was not familiar enough with what I was trying to explain (side mounts, inletting, etc) to comprehend what the problem was.  As you stated, she is selling on behalf of an older gentleman with a large collection.  Her listing descriptions were provided by the older gentleman who owned the guns.  

When I explained to her the problem with the Super Grade listing, she said she had heard from several other buyers who had the same concern.  She said she didn’t know enough about the rifles to know if the listing was right or wrong, but that she felt most comfortable sticking with the rifle descriptions provided by the old man.

In the end, she added a note to her listing, but even this was completely wrong and didn’t address the real issue of the rifle being a fake Super Grade…

“The stock was cut out for a different peep sight as the original peep slot in the wood has filled. Sorry this was missed in the description. You can withdraw any previous bids. Sorry for the confusion as I don’t write the descriptions. Rifle is a consignment rifle. Lisa.”

It doesn’t make the situation right, but it is the proper context for understanding the seller and her ability to judge these descriptions for herself.

Justin