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Interesting Winchester 1885 in .50 Express
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March 18, 2018 - 11:50 pm
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This sold last fall at Amoskeag.  I enjoyed reading the description.  It sure would have been nice had they showed the museum letter.  I actually like the rifle, and it seems to have an interesting history.  Others appears to have liked it as well as it sold for double to triple the auction estimate.  Big rifle!

http://www.amoskeagauction.com/116/50.php

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March 19, 2018 - 2:38 am
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That is interesting.  Because they list it as an .50 Express rather than .50-110 Express, it is most likely a .50-95.   .50 Express was the common way of marking any .50-95 caliber 1876 or 1885 model. When the .50-110 caliber was introduced, only then did Winchester use the .50-95 marking on the 1885.

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March 19, 2018 - 5:34 am
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win4575 said
That is interesting.  Because they list it as an .50 Express rather than .50-110 Express, it is most likely a .50-95.   .50 Express was the common way of marking any .50-95 caliber 1876 or 1885 model. When the .50-110 caliber was introduced, only then did Winchester use the .50-95 marking on the 1885.  

Absolutely not accurate.  Winchester marked all high-wall barrels made in the 50-95 express cartridge “50-95 W.C.F.”.  The high-walls made in 50-110 express were marked “50 EX.”  Additionally, keep in mind that Winchester only made a handful of high-walls in the 50-95 WCF cartridge before the 50-110 EX was introduced.  From serial number 1 through serial number 10,000, there were just  (11) recorded high-walls made in the 50-95 WCF and 50-110 EX cartridges, (9) and (2) respectively.

The rifle sold by Amoskeag was converted to 50 EX. (50-110) in October of 1911.  The 50-95 WCF was for the most part, an obsolete cartridge by that time, having been replaced by the much more popular 50-110 EX.

Bert

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March 19, 2018 - 2:10 pm
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Good to know.  I stand corrected.

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March 19, 2018 - 8:16 pm
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Bert H. said

win4575 said
That is interesting.  Because they list it as an .50 Express rather than .50-110 Express, it is most likely a .50-95.   .50 Express was the common way of marking any .50-95 caliber 1876 or 1885 model. When the .50-110 caliber was introduced, only then did Winchester use the .50-95 marking on the 1885.  

Absolutely not accurate.  Winchester marked all high-wall barrels made in the 50-95 express cartridge “50-95 W.C.F.”.  The high-walls made in 50-110 express were marked “50 EX.”  Additionally, keep in mind that Winchester only made a handful of high-walls in the 50-95 WCF cartridge before the 50-110 EX was introduced.  From serial number 1 through serial number 10,000, there were just  (11) recorded high-walls made in the 50-95 WCF and 50-110 EX cartridges, (9) and (2) respectively.

The rifle sold by Amoskeag was converted to 50 EX. (50-110) in October of 1911.  The 50-95 WCF was for the most part, an obsolete cartridge by that time, having been replaced by the much more popular 50-110 EX.

Bert  

 Bert, That’s good information. I collect Winchester loading tools and any “Express” marked loading tools I have owned was 50-95. They range from 1880 spoon handle to 1894 style. My experience is limited to approximately 10 tools. Are there any exceptions similar to the high-walls in 1886 barrel marking? T/R  

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March 19, 2018 - 9:37 pm
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Not that I am aware of, but please keep in mind that I have not researched & studied the Model 1886 like I have the Model 1885. I am currently working on an article for the WACA Collector magazine where I am going to discuss all of the cartridges that were factory chambered in the Model 1885 Single Shot Rifle.

Bert

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March 22, 2018 - 4:03 am
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TR said

 Bert, That’s good information. I collect Winchester loading tools and any “Express” marked loading tools I have owned was 50-95. They range from 1880 spoon handle to 1894 style. My experience is limited to approximately 10 tools. Are there any exceptions similar to the high-walls in 1886 barrel marking? T/R    

TR  I’m sure you may already know this but, you forgot the 1875 Tool. It was chambered for the 50-95wcf, and all are marked “Winchester Express”.

As far as the Tools go and just the Reloading Tools, concerning the Express “50” calibers.

The 1875 Tool is marked “Winchester Express” for the 50-95wcf.

The 1880 Tool is marked “Winchester Express” for the 50-95wcf.

The 1888 Tool was only cataloged for the 50-110 Express. (I currently don’t recall for certain how it was marked but think 50-110 Ex.)

The 1891 Tool was only cataloged for the 50-110 Express, marked 50-110 EX.

The 1894 Tool was cataloged for the 50-95wcf marked 50 Win. Exp., the 50-100-450 marked 50 100 with 450 underneath or marked 50-100-450, the 50-110 Express is marked 50 110 EX.

Now what is interesting is that the 50-110 Express was introduced in the year 1887. I’m still researching on exactly when that was, it’d be nice to know what month. As the 1888 Tool patent was Applied For on Nov. 21, 1887. So this begs the question was the 1880 Tool made briefly for a few months in the 50-110 Express caliber? If it was, that would be a very rare Tool today. Also interesting is that the 1880 Tool was still cataloged until 1896. Why was this done? Even after the models 1888, 1891 & 1894 Tools. The Reason for that is the Model 1876 Rifle calibers weren’t offered in the Models 1888 & 1891, and early production of the 1894 Tool. I suspect the factory may have had a good stock pile of these Tools in 1876 Rifle calibers lying around. And didn’t have the demand to start making more in those calibers until 1896. I suppose the owners wanted the Newer Tool which created the demand, maybe their old Tools wore out. As Bert stated there wasn’t much production of the 1885 Rifle in 50-95wcf after the 50-110 Express came onto the market. Which is another reason why you don’t see to many 1894 Tools in 76 Rifle Calibers, making them some what scarce, and the fact the 1876 Rifle production tapered way off after the year 1888. 

Other neat facts about .50 calibers. I have yet to find, or know anyone that has a Winchester Reloading Tool in either the “50-105” (and yes this is not a typo and an actual production caliber) & the 50 Eley. 18 to 23 Rifles (depending on ledger interpretations) were made in the “50-105” for the Model 1886 Rifle in the year 1888 and they made ammunition from 1888-1897. And there are known marked guns in this caliber. If a model 1888 Tool exists in “50-105” it would be a very rare bird. Per Bert’s research, 512 Model 1885 Rifles in 50 Eley were produced from 1894-1911. And there are known marked guns in this caliber. If a model 1894 Tool exists in “50 Eley” it too would be a very rare bird. But imagine a 50 Eley marked tool would be found before the 50-105, that is if they ever existed in the first place. 

This only covers the oddball 50 calibers. There are a slew more odd ball calibers in .45 and .40 that this could also occur in. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 22, 2018 - 1:30 pm
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 Maverick, Very interesting, you certainly know your tools. I never found a 1875, 1888,or 1891 tool marked “Winchester Express”. Now I know the 1875 tool exists in Winchester Express. Thanks. T/R 

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March 22, 2018 - 5:06 pm
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Brady, have you ever seen a 50 110 450 mold?

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March 24, 2018 - 4:47 am
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cwachter said
Brady, have you ever seen a 50 110 450 mold?  

Yes, I believe I have, (may have a pic of one, but I’m traveling for work, when I get home I’ll try and find it). 

Believe the mold was marked 50 110 EX. It’s a given that Winchester would of made the mold, as they catalogued, produced it in the 1888, 1891, & 1894 Tools, and they’re also listed on instruction sheets.  

Sincerely, 

Maverick

P.S. Do you happen to have one? As I know a few people that do. But they are rare tools. Just like the rifles, anything in .50 cal brings a premium. 

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March 24, 2018 - 10:37 pm
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Maverick said

Yes, I believe I have, (may have a pic of one, but I’m traveling for work, when I get home I’ll try and find it). 

Believe the mold was marked 50 110 EX. It’s a given that Winchester would of made the mold, as they catalogued, produced it in the 1888, 1891, & 1894 Tools, and they’re also listed on instruction sheets.  

Sincerely, 

Maverick

P.S. Do you happen to have one? As I know a few people that do. But they are rare tools. Just like the rifles, anything in .50 cal brings a premium.   

I have never owned any 50 calibers.  Usually twice as much as a 45-75, 45-70 or 45-90.  Over the years I could have bought the ammo for $3,000.  I do have one cartridge and one 50-95.  I know of a dealer that has an 1886 in 50-110-450. A lot of money.

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March 24, 2018 - 11:10 pm
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cwatchter,

I have a 1886 SRC 50-100-450 and a box of ammo. They are for sale, but not actively marketed.

What catches my eye is your reference to ” 50-110-450 “. I didn’t know that caliber existed.

Was that a typo or does, in fact, does this dealer have that caliber ?

Bill

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March 25, 2018 - 1:27 am
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Most likely my mistake. Like I said I have never owned a 50 cal of any type.

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March 25, 2018 - 4:47 pm
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In John Madl’s excellent book “ Identifying Your Model 1886 Winchester” it says 3 were made (from the records) but he and the other researchers felt the records were typo errors, as only the 50-100-450 and 50-110 (Ex) stamps were made.

If the dealer has one, John would love to get pictures. It would be a major find for his research. If you run across the dealer, pass that on please or contact me.

Thanks,

Bill

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March 27, 2018 - 5:48 am
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Blueliner said
cwatchter,

I have a 1886 SRC 50-100-450 and a box of ammo. They are for sale, but not actively marketed.

What catches my eye is your reference to ” 50-110-450 “. I didn’t know that caliber existed.

Was that a typo or does, in fact, does this dealer have that caliber ?

Bill  

Funny that I didn’t catch that myself. I guess the answer would then be NO. As the cartridges that I would have been thinking of are the 50-110-300 & 50-100-450.

Here are examples of Molds and how they’ve been marked.

5th Type Molds

50-100-45050-100-450.jpgImage Enlarger 50-11050-110-EX..jpgImage Enlarger50-9550WIN.EXP_.50-95.jpgImage Enlarger50WinchesterExpress50-95.jpgImage Enlarger50WinchesterExpress-Over4050-95.jpgImage Enlarger This one has 50 stamped over a 45. Mold for the 50-95.

4th Type MoldsExpress50-954thTypeMold.jpgImage EnlargerWinchesterExpress-4thTypMold.jpgImage Enlarger I have a 5th Type Mold and have seen plenty others marked just like this 4th Type Mold that is merely stamped Winchester Express. Evidently they started adding the 50 in front later on, as not to confuse with the .45 Win. Express.

I have not found a 3rd Model Mold in Winchester Express, I have very high doubts one exists or was ever made. Just like I have yet to find a 5th Model Mold in a .30 Caliber, other than in Short Range Calibers.

Sincerely, 

Maverick 

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March 27, 2018 - 10:38 am
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Were any high-walls made in .50-100-450?

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March 27, 2018 - 2:54 pm
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steve004 said
Were any high-walls made in .50-100-450?  

Steve,

There were exactly (2) high-walls made in 50-100-450.  They are noted in the records as “50-100 EX.”  I have not seen either one of them to confirm the barrel marking, but I suspect it would be the same as the Model 1886 barrel marking.

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April 4, 2019 - 9:15 am
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Hi I have just taken in a Winchester 1885 highwall with .50 ELEY stamped on the barrel, I cant find any info on the calibre at all can anyone help??

 

Thanks Wayne

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April 4, 2019 - 5:09 pm
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Hello Wayne,

Winchester introduced the 50 ELEY cartridge chambering in the Model 1885 very early in production, and shipped many of them to British and India orders. The 50 ELEY was an English origin cartridge, developed sometime in the 1860s. In total, Winchester made at least (512) high-walls chambered for the 50 ELEY cartridge, and another (468) in the slightly smaller 45 ELEY cartridge. The rare ELEY cartridge was the 577 ELEY, with only (11) made. Nearly all of the ELEY chambered high-walls were made with a 30-inch No. 3 round contour barrel, and a shotgun butt.

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June 10, 2019 - 12:33 am
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Gents:
How about a high wall marked 50 EX WCF?

I have a high wall imported from the UK with such a marking.

Could it be a rebore and then restamp over the original caliber? It’s a very nice condition single shot with a 30″ octagon barrel, and a large or long range tang sight. The number is 39836. How does one go about verification?

Thanks for your input. My email is <[email protected]>

Cal

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