Chamber tolerances|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

That’s surprising, as most BP chambers are generous in their tolerances to allow for BP fouling. And more often than not, BP bullets were slightly undersized to make damn sure they’d chamber even in a badly fouled brl.; the theory was that the heavy jolt of BP detonation would expand the bullet’s base to fill the grooves.  In my experience of loading BP cartridges, it was usually impossible to load a groove diameter bullet even in a fired case, unless the mouth of the case was reamed, & maybe not even then.

clarence said
That’s surprising, as most BP chambers are generous in their tolerances to allow for BP fouling. And more often than not, BP bullets were slightly undersized to make damn sure they’d chamber even in a badly fouled brl.; the theory was that the heavy jolt of BP detonation would expand the bullet’s base to fill the grooves.  In my experience of loading BP cartridges, it was usually impossible to load a groove diameter bullet even in a fired case, unless the mouth of the case was reamed, & maybe not even then.

  

I agree with most of this, especially the tolerance part.  I always slug my bore and shoot lead that is .001″ larger than the groove diameter.  I have many different Winchester rifles that I load and shoot and have never had a bullet diameter issue.  I recently had a tight chamber and had to swage the base of some 40-65 cases.  One of my 45-90’s requires a thinner rim than the other so I sort the brass to accommodate.  Stupid high wall.

Chuck said   I always slug my bore and shoot lead that is .001″ larger than the groove diameter.  I have many different Winchester rifles that I load and shoot and have never had a bullet diameter issue.
  

Can’t understand how you were able to do that, & still seat the bullet in the case.  May be the diff between rifles–most of my BP shooting has been with Ballards.  At one point I ordered an oversize chamber reamer from Clymer, but couldn’t work up the nerve to use it on my .38-55 Pacific.

clarence said

Chuck said   I always slug my bore and shoot lead that is .001″ larger than the groove diameter.  I have many different Winchester rifles that I load and shoot and have never had a bullet diameter issue.

  

Can’t understand how you were able to do that, & still seat the bullet in the case.  May be the diff between rifles–most of my BP shooting has been with Ballards.  At one point I ordered an oversize chamber reamer from Clymer, but couldn’t work up the nerve to use it on my .38-55 Pacific.

  

Getting the bullet in the case usually isn’t an issue.  But, I did make a custom expander for some of the 45’s.  I guess I’ve been lucky that I haven’t bulged a case that would cause the round not to chamber.  You can buy inside case reamers and if you are rich you can buy an IDOD neck turner that cuts the inside and outside of case necks both at the same time.  Custom chambers sometimes require neck turning.  Also some shooters want the necks thinner so when fired they open enough to fully release the bullet.  So far I haven’t had to turn a neck but a friend gave me a drill operated neck turner.  You can check if you might want to turn a neck by taking a fired case and see if a bullet will drop right in.  If it doesn’t it is too tight for a lot of the long range shooters.

1892takedown said
Im not familiar with PMC ammo, but it looks like this was a limited “special” production run on the 45-90 ammo from what I can find on the web. 

When I started loading for my 1886 in 45-90, I purchased the Lyman 45-90 die set (#7460499) only to find the cartridges would not chamber using my .460″ caliber cast bullets.  It wasnt so much a problem with the bullet diameter, it was the sized cartridge case.  The cartridges would chamber, I cant remember but think they would chamber up to about the last 1/4″ or more.  I ended up pulling those bullets and taking my 45-70 die to do a partial full length resize and they chambered fine.  Was quite disappointed with the Lyman dies and contacted them…..

As Chuck mentioned, Id start with a round that chambers then use a micrometer and compare dimensions against those that dont to identify any variances in size or OACL from one to the next. 

  

I’m not a fan of PMC, will leave it at that. Chris’ Lyman anecdote reminds me of an experience with Hornady 45-70 dies. Could not get any neck tension on cast bullets sized @.459. Ordered up a Lyman short neck sizer (7135057) and taper crimp die (7153124). Worked like a charm! When I made my foray into 45-90 there was no need for additional tooling! Yes, I’m a big fan of Hornady and Lyman products. We just have to be patient and find what works. 
That brings me to the OP. Long before I started collecting Winchesters I learned that rifles are often individuals. I’ve since learned the same is true for old Winchesters, possibly more so. If you’ll approach these treasures as individuals and find out what each likes you may encounter some common ground as to their preferences but it’s quite possible you won’t find one ammo that all six “like”. It’s not the end of the world; I have three different “best” 45-70 loads, same with 45 Colt if you count BP loads. And then there’s the 38-55/375 Winchester. At present I’m working on one 32-40 load for a SS, another for a repeater. I only have one 45-90 load my rifle likes (a case full of 1 1/2F Swiss and a Lyman 457125 bullet cast of 20-1 alloy) but it’s a Sharps and I’ve learned to indulge its idiosyncrasies. 
Quite honestly I don’t regard the 45-90 as a smokeless powder cartridge. In my opinion it was created to put more BP under a lighter bullet, IE an express cartridge. The advent of smokeless powder greatly reduced its usefulness as the longer case was no longer required to push a 45 caliber bullet faster. Nowadays it also makes an excellent long range BP cartridge in SS rifles with a heavy bullet. I haven’t found a smokeless powder that performs as well as BP in my rifle, maybe because I quit looking after I found the Swiss load. I think there are factory loads and smokeless reloads that will work in your 45-90’s, finding loads to work in all six will be an interesting quest. Enjoy!

Mike

I think what we perceive today as a “Chamber Tolerance” being off, is more of a issue of wear / use / abuse, and not so much as manufacturing tolerance issue. When they were originally produced, they were made to pretty exact measurements. Then on top of that is a large variance between ammunition manufacturers. Especially with what is going on in the ammunition manufacturing nowadays. People are currently finding on the shelf ammo with cold cracking in the casing necks from the factory not properly annealing cases. Along with other QA/QC issues with ammo that in years past manufacturers didn’t have. Quality has taken a down turn to meet the demand.

Sincerely,

Maverick

TXGunNut said

1892takedown said

Im not familiar with PMC ammo, but it looks like this was a limited “special” production run on the 45-90 ammo from what I can find on the web. 

When I started loading for my 1886 in 45-90, I purchased the Lyman 45-90 die set (#7460499) only to find the cartridges would not chamber using my .460″ caliber cast bullets.  It wasnt so much a problem with the bullet diameter, it was the sized cartridge case.  The cartridges would chamber, I cant remember but think they would chamber up to about the last 1/4″ or more.  I ended up pulling those bullets and taking my 45-70 die to do a partial full length resize and they chambered fine.  Was quite disappointed with the Lyman dies and contacted them…..

As Chuck mentioned, Id start with a round that chambers then use a micrometer and compare dimensions against those that dont to identify any variances in size or OACL from one to the next. 

  

I’m not a fan of PMC, will leave it at that. Chris’ Lyman anecdote reminds me of an experience with Hornady 45-70 dies. Could not get any neck tension on cast bullets sized @.459. Ordered up a Lyman short neck sizer (7135057) and taper crimp die (7153124). Worked like a charm! When I made my foray into 45-90 there was no need for additional tooling! Yes, I’m a big fan of Hornady and Lyman products. We just have to be patient and find what works. 

That brings me to the OP. Long before I started collecting Winchesters I learned that rifles are often individuals. I’ve since learned the same is true for old Winchesters, possibly more so. If you’ll approach these treasures as individuals and find out what each likes you may encounter some common ground as to their preferences but it’s quite possible you won’t find one ammo that all six “like”. It’s not the end of the world; I have three different “best” 45-70 loads, same with 45 Colt if you count BP loads. And then there’s the 38-55/375 Winchester. At present I’m working on one 32-40 load for a SS, another for a repeater. I only have one 45-90 load my rifle likes (a case full of 1 1/2F Swiss and a Lyman 457125 bullet cast of 20-1 alloy) but it’s a Sharps and I’ve learned to indulge its idiosyncrasies. 

Quite honestly I don’t regard the 45-90 as a smokeless powder cartridge. In my opinion it was created to put more BP under a lighter bullet, IE an express cartridge. The advent of smokeless powder greatly reduced its usefulness as the longer case was no longer required to push a 45 caliber bullet faster. Nowadays it also makes an excellent long range BP cartridge in SS rifles with a heavy bullet. I haven’t found a smokeless powder that performs as well as BP in my rifle, maybe because I quit looking after I found the Swiss load. I think there are factory loads and smokeless reloads that will work in your 45-90’s, finding loads to work in all six will be an interesting quest. Enjoy!

Mike

  

Years ago I ran into a special on that special run PMC .45-90.  I recall ordering 30 boxes.  I think it was about $10 a box – so $300 for 30 boxes of brand new .45-90 ammo seemed like quite the score.  The only problem was my .45-90 hated it.  It fed and chambered fine but accuracy was beyond poor.  Now, this may well be a result of the not-so-great bore in my .45-90.  I switched to handloading jacketed bullets for it and accuracy improved dramatically.  I’ve also got a healthy supply of special run PMC .40-65 ammunition here.  I used to use it in a .40-60 M1881 Marlin I had.  Now, I use it in a .40-75 Bullard repeater and a Colt .40-60-260 Express rifle I have.  It functions well in both.  

I tend to use the same brass and ammo in a variety of rifles.  I do notice different performance such as been reported here, but very rarely do a find that a round will chamber in one rifle, but not in another.  

Don’t get me wrong here, as I buy and shoot Remington ammo, but even Remington ammo has had issues lately. Especially once they started back up again after the bankruptcy hand changing.

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Maverick said
Don’t get me wrong here, as I buy and shoot Remington ammo, but even Remington ammo has had issues lately. Especially once they started back up again after the bankruptcy hand changing.

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Before the latest silliness I realized I was buying 100 pieces of RP brass to get two lots of 40 decent cases after weight sorting and prep. I bought 100 pieces of Hornady brass and all were in an acceptable weight range and needed very little case prep. Nowadays we have to use what we can find. Luckily I can find almost anything I need on my shelves. This ain’t my first rodeo!

Mike

Any of you folks talking about defective cases take the trouble of emailing your complaint to the maker?  May not change their quality control, but would at least make them aware you aren’t being fooled.