Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Chamber tolerances
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 542
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
November 13, 2022 - 8:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Sorry to ask this, but, I have 6 1886’s in 45-90 and I have chambering problems. I have a bunch of different ammo and some will chamber in one  but not another. if I try a different gun, all mite work or none. Different gun, different results. So question is, were the tolerances  back then that bad? I cant believe people chamber cast and slugged their barrels every time and spent a lot of time making up their own handloads. 

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
2
November 13, 2022 - 8:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

That’s surprising, as most BP chambers are generous in their tolerances to allow for BP fouling. And more often than not, BP bullets were slightly undersized to make damn sure they’d chamber even in a badly fouled brl.; the theory was that the heavy jolt of BP detonation would expand the bullet’s base to fill the grooves.  In my experience of loading BP cartridges, it was usually impossible to load a groove diameter bullet even in a fired case, unless the mouth of the case was reamed, & maybe not even then.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
November 13, 2022 - 8:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Need to measure your ammo.  Let us know what you find out.  Is it the base or rim diameter or thickness?  Could even be the bullet diameter or the OAL of the loaded round.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
November 13, 2022 - 8:59 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said
That’s surprising, as most BP chambers are generous in their tolerances to allow for BP fouling. And more often than not, BP bullets were slightly undersized to make damn sure they’d chamber even in a badly fouled brl.; the theory was that the heavy jolt of BP detonation would expand the bullet’s base to fill the grooves.  In my experience of loading BP cartridges, it was usually impossible to load a groove diameter bullet even in a fired case, unless the mouth of the case was reamed, & maybe not even then.

  

I agree with most of this, especially the tolerance part.  I always slug my bore and shoot lead that is .001″ larger than the groove diameter.  I have many different Winchester rifles that I load and shoot and have never had a bullet diameter issue.  I recently had a tight chamber and had to swage the base of some 40-65 cases.  One of my 45-90’s requires a thinner rim than the other so I sort the brass to accommodate.  Stupid high wall.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 542
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
November 13, 2022 - 9:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

It is perplexing me. I am not a reloader so it is driving me nuts. I have bought some PMC ammo and one lot chambers the next wont. So i dont know the root of the problem. One rifle the ammo will jam half wat into the chamber, change guns and it jams about 1/32 from full seat, change rifle chambers and shoots. I say this using the same round. Change ammo different story.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
6
November 13, 2022 - 11:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said   I always slug my bore and shoot lead that is .001″ larger than the groove diameter.  I have many different Winchester rifles that I load and shoot and have never had a bullet diameter issue.
  

Can’t understand how you were able to do that, & still seat the bullet in the case.  May be the diff between rifles–most of my BP shooting has been with Ballards.  At one point I ordered an oversize chamber reamer from Clymer, but couldn’t work up the nerve to use it on my .38-55 Pacific.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
7
November 13, 2022 - 11:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

oldcrankyyankee said
It is perplexing me. I am not a reloader so it is driving me nuts. I have bought some PMC ammo and one lot chambers the next wont.

  

Sounds like a quality control issue.  You can’t find one brand that doesn’t have this problem?  Have you tried the Black Hills brand? 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
November 14, 2022 - 4:58 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Chuck said   I always slug my bore and shoot lead that is .001″ larger than the groove diameter.  I have many different Winchester rifles that I load and shoot and have never had a bullet diameter issue.

  

Can’t understand how you were able to do that, & still seat the bullet in the case.  May be the diff between rifles–most of my BP shooting has been with Ballards.  At one point I ordered an oversize chamber reamer from Clymer, but couldn’t work up the nerve to use it on my .38-55 Pacific.

  

Getting the bullet in the case usually isn’t an issue.  But, I did make a custom expander for some of the 45’s.  I guess I’ve been lucky that I haven’t bulged a case that would cause the round not to chamber.  You can buy inside case reamers and if you are rich you can buy an IDOD neck turner that cuts the inside and outside of case necks both at the same time.  Custom chambers sometimes require neck turning.  Also some shooters want the necks thinner so when fired they open enough to fully release the bullet.  So far I haven’t had to turn a neck but a friend gave me a drill operated neck turner.  You can check if you might want to turn a neck by taking a fired case and see if a bullet will drop right in.  If it doesn’t it is too tight for a lot of the long range shooters.

Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1041
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
November 15, 2022 - 3:21 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Im not familiar with PMC ammo, but it looks like this was a limited “special” production run on the 45-90 ammo from what I can find on the web. 

When I started loading for my 1886 in 45-90, I purchased the Lyman 45-90 die set (#7460499) only to find the cartridges would not chamber using my .460″ caliber cast bullets.  It wasnt so much a problem with the bullet diameter, it was the sized cartridge case.  The cartridges would chamber, I cant remember but think they would chamber up to about the last 1/4″ or more.  I ended up pulling those bullets and taking my 45-70 die to do a partial full length resize and they chambered fine.  Was quite disappointed with the Lyman dies and contacted them–If I remember right they indicated this was not the first time their sizing dies didnt work for a Win 45-90.  It may also be an issue with the loaded cartridge neck size or crimp.  Hard to say. 

As Chuck mentioned, Id start with a round that chambers then use a micrometer and compare dimensions against those that dont to identify any variances in size or OACL from one to the next. 

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4889
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
November 16, 2022 - 3:43 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said
Im not familiar with PMC ammo, but it looks like this was a limited “special” production run on the 45-90 ammo from what I can find on the web. 

When I started loading for my 1886 in 45-90, I purchased the Lyman 45-90 die set (#7460499) only to find the cartridges would not chamber using my .460″ caliber cast bullets.  It wasnt so much a problem with the bullet diameter, it was the sized cartridge case.  The cartridges would chamber, I cant remember but think they would chamber up to about the last 1/4″ or more.  I ended up pulling those bullets and taking my 45-70 die to do a partial full length resize and they chambered fine.  Was quite disappointed with the Lyman dies and contacted them…..

As Chuck mentioned, Id start with a round that chambers then use a micrometer and compare dimensions against those that dont to identify any variances in size or OACL from one to the next. 

  

I’m not a fan of PMC, will leave it at that. Chris’ Lyman anecdote reminds me of an experience with Hornady 45-70 dies. Could not get any neck tension on cast bullets sized @.459. Ordered up a Lyman short neck sizer (7135057) and taper crimp die (7153124). Worked like a charm! When I made my foray into 45-90 there was no need for additional tooling! Yes, I’m a big fan of Hornady and Lyman products. We just have to be patient and find what works. 
That brings me to the OP. Long before I started collecting Winchesters I learned that rifles are often individuals. I’ve since learned the same is true for old Winchesters, possibly more so. If you’ll approach these treasures as individuals and find out what each likes you may encounter some common ground as to their preferences but it’s quite possible you won’t find one ammo that all six “like”. It’s not the end of the world; I have three different “best” 45-70 loads, same with 45 Colt if you count BP loads. And then there’s the 38-55/375 Winchester. At present I’m working on one 32-40 load for a SS, another for a repeater. I only have one 45-90 load my rifle likes (a case full of 1 1/2F Swiss and a Lyman 457125 bullet cast of 20-1 alloy) but it’s a Sharps and I’ve learned to indulge its idiosyncrasies. 
Quite honestly I don’t regard the 45-90 as a smokeless powder cartridge. In my opinion it was created to put more BP under a lighter bullet, IE an express cartridge. The advent of smokeless powder greatly reduced its usefulness as the longer case was no longer required to push a 45 caliber bullet faster. Nowadays it also makes an excellent long range BP cartridge in SS rifles with a heavy bullet. I haven’t found a smokeless powder that performs as well as BP in my rifle, maybe because I quit looking after I found the Swiss load. I think there are factory loads and smokeless reloads that will work in your 45-90’s, finding loads to work in all six will be an interesting quest. Enjoy!

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
November 16, 2022 - 7:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

All rifles, new and old, are individuals. Your barrel/group size will let you know what it likes.  I spent a lot of time developing loads for the 45-90 with smokeless powder.  I’ve had a handful of 45-90’s over the years.  I still have 2.  When I first start load development I try to use 3 powders if possible.  I also incorporate any long range procedures that are applicable to our rimmed cases.  Neck tension is very important.  Accurate case trim length makes sure the bullets are squeezed the same length.  The method of applying neck tension is critical for accuracy.  Use the lightest amount you can get away with.  Don’t assume the old wives tales are true.  I don’t crimp unless I have to.  With the proper expanders you often can do a better job.  You need to try different bullets and seating depths.  Seating depths effect the barrel harmonics.  Primers are not the same.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1543
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
November 16, 2022 - 9:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I think what we perceive today as a “Chamber Tolerance” being off, is more of a issue of wear / use / abuse, and not so much as manufacturing tolerance issue. When they were originally produced, they were made to pretty exact measurements. Then on top of that is a large variance between ammunition manufacturers. Especially with what is going on in the ammunition manufacturing nowadays. People are currently finding on the shelf ammo with cold cracking in the casing necks from the factory not properly annealing cases. Along with other QA/QC issues with ammo that in years past manufacturers didn’t have. Quality has taken a down turn to meet the demand.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10641
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
13
November 16, 2022 - 11:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick said
Especially with what is going on in the ammunition manufacturing nowadays. People are currently finding on the shelf ammo with cold cracking in the casing necks from the factory not properly annealing cases. 

Sincerely,

Maverick  

To give you a perfect example of that exact issue, a few years ago I bought 2 boxes of factory new 30-40 Krag ammo. One box was Winchester W-W Super 180-grain SP, the other Remington Core-Lokt 180-grain SP.  I shot 10-rounds out of each box (total 20-round).  When I cleaned (tumbled) the once fired empties, I found (3) of the (10) W-W cases split at the neck & shoulder.  The Remington R-P brass was all in excellent condition.  I have experienced the same issue with factory new 22 Hornet ammo… the Winchester cases very frequently splits whereas the Remington never does.  I have since stopped purchasing Winchester ammo.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
November 17, 2022 - 12:33 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

1892takedown said

Im not familiar with PMC ammo, but it looks like this was a limited “special” production run on the 45-90 ammo from what I can find on the web. 

When I started loading for my 1886 in 45-90, I purchased the Lyman 45-90 die set (#7460499) only to find the cartridges would not chamber using my .460″ caliber cast bullets.  It wasnt so much a problem with the bullet diameter, it was the sized cartridge case.  The cartridges would chamber, I cant remember but think they would chamber up to about the last 1/4″ or more.  I ended up pulling those bullets and taking my 45-70 die to do a partial full length resize and they chambered fine.  Was quite disappointed with the Lyman dies and contacted them…..

As Chuck mentioned, Id start with a round that chambers then use a micrometer and compare dimensions against those that dont to identify any variances in size or OACL from one to the next. 

  

I’m not a fan of PMC, will leave it at that. Chris’ Lyman anecdote reminds me of an experience with Hornady 45-70 dies. Could not get any neck tension on cast bullets sized @.459. Ordered up a Lyman short neck sizer (7135057) and taper crimp die (7153124). Worked like a charm! When I made my foray into 45-90 there was no need for additional tooling! Yes, I’m a big fan of Hornady and Lyman products. We just have to be patient and find what works. 

That brings me to the OP. Long before I started collecting Winchesters I learned that rifles are often individuals. I’ve since learned the same is true for old Winchesters, possibly more so. If you’ll approach these treasures as individuals and find out what each likes you may encounter some common ground as to their preferences but it’s quite possible you won’t find one ammo that all six “like”. It’s not the end of the world; I have three different “best” 45-70 loads, same with 45 Colt if you count BP loads. And then there’s the 38-55/375 Winchester. At present I’m working on one 32-40 load for a SS, another for a repeater. I only have one 45-90 load my rifle likes (a case full of 1 1/2F Swiss and a Lyman 457125 bullet cast of 20-1 alloy) but it’s a Sharps and I’ve learned to indulge its idiosyncrasies. 

Quite honestly I don’t regard the 45-90 as a smokeless powder cartridge. In my opinion it was created to put more BP under a lighter bullet, IE an express cartridge. The advent of smokeless powder greatly reduced its usefulness as the longer case was no longer required to push a 45 caliber bullet faster. Nowadays it also makes an excellent long range BP cartridge in SS rifles with a heavy bullet. I haven’t found a smokeless powder that performs as well as BP in my rifle, maybe because I quit looking after I found the Swiss load. I think there are factory loads and smokeless reloads that will work in your 45-90’s, finding loads to work in all six will be an interesting quest. Enjoy!

Mike

  

Years ago I ran into a special on that special run PMC .45-90.  I recall ordering 30 boxes.  I think it was about $10 a box – so $300 for 30 boxes of brand new .45-90 ammo seemed like quite the score.  The only problem was my .45-90 hated it.  It fed and chambered fine but accuracy was beyond poor.  Now, this may well be a result of the not-so-great bore in my .45-90.  I switched to handloading jacketed bullets for it and accuracy improved dramatically.  I’ve also got a healthy supply of special run PMC .40-65 ammunition here.  I used to use it in a .40-60 M1881 Marlin I had.  Now, I use it in a .40-75 Bullard repeater and a Colt .40-60-260 Express rifle I have.  It functions well in both.  

I tend to use the same brass and ammo in a variety of rifles.  I do notice different performance such as been reported here, but very rarely do a find that a round will chamber in one rifle, but not in another.  

Avatar
New Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
July 22, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
November 17, 2022 - 2:15 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick said
Quality has taken a down turn to meet the demand. 

 

I agree! 

 

To give you a perfect example of that exact issue, a few years ago I bought 2 boxes of factory new 30-40 Krag ammo. One box was Winchester W-W Super 180-grain SP, the other Remington Core-Lokt 180-grain SP.  I shot 10-rounds out of each box (total 20-round).  When I cleaned (tumbled) the once fired empties, I found (3) of the (10) W-W cases split at the neck & shoulder.  The Remington R-P brass was all in excellent condition.  I have experienced the same issue with factory new 22 Hornet ammo… the Winchester cases very frequently splits whereas the Remington never does.  I have since stopped purchasing Winchester ammo.

Bert

  

 

I’ve experienced the same splitting issues with Winchester factory loads in .30-30 & .22 WMRF.  Have also experienced shotgun firing pins piercing holes in Cheddite primers.  IMHO, lack of quality components/quality control is the new norm for more than just ammo. Yell    

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1543
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
November 17, 2022 - 3:56 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Don’t get me wrong here, as I buy and shoot Remington ammo, but even Remington ammo has had issues lately. Especially once they started back up again after the bankruptcy hand changing.

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
17
November 17, 2022 - 4:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick said

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

  

As long, & only as long, that we don’t forget that it IS, in Robert Frost’s words, a “diminished thing.”  Unfortunately, the usual human tendency is, as time goes by, to accept the “diminished thing” as the norm, & expect no better.  Expect no better, & you’ll get no better.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4889
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
November 17, 2022 - 5:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick said
Don’t get me wrong here, as I buy and shoot Remington ammo, but even Remington ammo has had issues lately. Especially once they started back up again after the bankruptcy hand changing.

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Before the latest silliness I realized I was buying 100 pieces of RP brass to get two lots of 40 decent cases after weight sorting and prep. I bought 100 pieces of Hornady brass and all were in an acceptable weight range and needed very little case prep. Nowadays we have to use what we can find. Luckily I can find almost anything I need on my shelves. This ain’t my first rodeo!

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
November 17, 2022 - 9:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

Maverick said

Don’t get me wrong here, as I buy and shoot Remington ammo, but even Remington ammo has had issues lately. Especially once they started back up again after the bankruptcy hand changing.

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Before the latest silliness I realized I was buying 100 pieces of RP brass to get two lots of 40 decent cases after weight sorting and prep. I bought 100 pieces of Hornady brass and all were in an acceptable weight range and needed very little case prep. Nowadays we have to use what we can find. Luckily I can find almost anything I need on my shelves. This ain’t my first rodeo!

 

Mike

  

Why do you weigh your cases?  Weight alone does not tell you where that weight is.  You can do it if you want but I would suggest you do a case volume test instead of or do it after sorting by weight.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
20
November 17, 2022 - 9:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Any of you folks talking about defective cases take the trouble of emailing your complaint to the maker?  May not change their quality control, but would at least make them aware you aren’t being fooled.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6168
TXGunNut: 4889
Chuck: 4528
1873man: 4269
steve004: 4108
Big Larry: 2297
twobit: 2284
TR: 1698
mrcvs: 1673
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12526
Posts: 108818

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1731
Members: 8737
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation