Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Chamber tolerances
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
21
November 18, 2022 - 3:37 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said

TXGunNut said

Maverick said

Don’t get me wrong here, as I buy and shoot Remington ammo, but even Remington ammo has had issues lately. Especially once they started back up again after the bankruptcy hand changing.

But getting lower quality is better than nothing at all.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

Before the latest silliness I realized I was buying 100 pieces of RP brass to get two lots of 40 decent cases after weight sorting and prep. I bought 100 pieces of Hornady brass and all were in an acceptable weight range and needed very little case prep. Nowadays we have to use what we can find. Luckily I can find almost anything I need on my shelves. This ain’t my first rodeo!

 

Mike

  

Why do you weigh your cases?  Weight alone does not tell you where that weight is.  You can do it if you want but I would suggest you do a case volume test instead of or do it after sorting by weight.

  

I’m not a serious rifle target shooter, the case weight helps me cull the outliers. I also clean up the flash holes and trim to uniform length (after sizing) with RP cases, something I don’t have to do with Hornady cases. These steps are probably not necessary for hunting ammo but I build pretty good hunting ammo. I’m not knocking RP cases, they were my standard for years. I don’t need the premium brass but I appreciate the little bit of extra quality I get from Hornady. I’m a big fan of Winchester pistol brass and I’ve had mostly good luck with their rifle brass but quite honestly much of the Winchester brass I’ve bought in the last several years was probably on the shelf for awhile. Before this latest shortage Winchester made a lot of brass for some of the Winchester cartridges I enjoy most and I stocked up. When this silliness is over I hope they make the brass we crave!

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1042
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
November 18, 2022 - 5:09 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

Chuck said

Before the latest silliness I realized I was buying 100 pieces of RP brass to get two lots of 40 decent cases after weight sorting and prep. I bought 100 pieces of Hornady brass and all were in an acceptable weight range and needed very little case prep. Nowadays we have to use what we can find. Luckily I can find almost anything I need on my shelves. This ain’t my first rodeo!

Mike

 

Why do you weigh your cases?  Weight alone does not tell you where that weight is.  You can do it if you want but I would suggest you do a case volume test instead of or do it after sorting by weight.

  

I’m not a serious rifle target shooter, the case weight helps me cull the outliers. I also clean up the flash holes and trim to uniform length (after sizing) with RP cases, something I don’t have to do with Hornady cases. These steps are probably not necessary for hunting ammo but I build pretty good hunting ammo. I’m not knocking RP cases, they were my standard for years. I don’t need the premium brass but I appreciate the little bit of extra quality I get from Hornady. I’m a big fan of Winchester pistol brass and I’ve had mostly good luck with their rifle brass but quite honestly much of the Winchester brass I’ve bought in the last several years was probably on the shelf for awhile. Before this latest shortage Winchester made a lot of brass for some of the Winchester cartridges I enjoy most and I stocked up. When this silliness is over I hope they make the brass we crave!

Mike

  

Mike, I do the same thing.  After sizing and trimming brass I sort it all by manufacturer into separate lots to be used or shot by those lots.  In most cases, individual manufacturers brass will weigh within the same ranges.  Ive assumed if the brass was sized, trimmed, and sorted by manufacturer, and falling within a nominal weight range, then volumetrically they would be similar.   I agree, the Hornady brass seems to be of better quality than others. 

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4160
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
November 18, 2022 - 5:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said

TXGunNut said

Chuck said

Before the latest silliness I realized I was buying 100 pieces of RP brass to get two lots of 40 decent cases after weight sorting and prep. I bought 100 pieces of Hornady brass and all were in an acceptable weight range and needed very little case prep. Nowadays we have to use what we can find. Luckily I can find almost anything I need on my shelves. This ain’t my first rodeo!

Mike

 

Why do you weigh your cases?  Weight alone does not tell you where that weight is.  You can do it if you want but I would suggest you do a case volume test instead of or do it after sorting by weight.

  

I’m not a serious rifle target shooter, the case weight helps me cull the outliers. I also clean up the flash holes and trim to uniform length (after sizing) with RP cases, something I don’t have to do with Hornady cases. These steps are probably not necessary for hunting ammo but I build pretty good hunting ammo. I’m not knocking RP cases, they were my standard for years. I don’t need the premium brass but I appreciate the little bit of extra quality I get from Hornady. I’m a big fan of Winchester pistol brass and I’ve had mostly good luck with their rifle brass but quite honestly much of the Winchester brass I’ve bought in the last several years was probably on the shelf for awhile. Before this latest shortage Winchester made a lot of brass for some of the Winchester cartridges I enjoy most and I stocked up. When this silliness is over I hope they make the brass we crave!

Mike

  

Mike, I do the same thing.  After sizing and trimming brass I sort it all by manufacturer into separate lots to be used or shot by those lots.  In most cases, individual manufacturers brass will weigh within the same ranges.  Ive assumed if the brass was sized, trimmed, and sorted by manufacturer, and falling within a nominal weight range, then volumetrically they would be similar.   I agree, the Hornady brass seems to be of better quality than others. 

  

I routinely have various lots of brass from different manufactures.  I also experiment with different loads (e.g. powder brand, amount of powder, primer brand), OAL, etc.  I generally select a batch of brass from the same manufacture for each load – so I can eliminate differences in brass as a variable (as much as possible).

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4571
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
November 18, 2022 - 6:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said

 

Mike, I do the same thing.  After sizing and trimming brass I sort it all by manufacturer into separate lots to be used or shot by those lots.  In most cases, individual manufacturers brass will weigh within the same ranges.  Ive assumed if the brass was sized, trimmed, and sorted by manufacturer, and falling within a nominal weight range, then volumetrically they would be similar.   I agree, the Hornady brass seems to be of better quality than others. 

  

That is not necessarily a correct assumption.  Usually the extra weight is in the head/base area.  The only way to really check is to use plugs that fill the primer pocket.  These come in LP and SP.  Then you fill the case with water and then weigh it.  You could be wasting some good brass.

Here is one source.

https://21stcenturyinnovation.com/buy-online/ols/products/primer-pocket-plugs

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4571
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
November 18, 2022 - 6:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

I’m not a serious rifle target shooter, the case weight helps me cull the outliers. I also clean up the flash holes and trim to uniform length (after sizing) with RP cases, something I don’t have to do with Hornady cases. These steps are probably not necessary for hunting ammo but I build pretty good hunting ammo. I’m not knocking RP cases, they were my standard for years. I don’t need the premium brass but I appreciate the little bit of extra quality I get from Hornady. I’m a big fan of Winchester pistol brass and I’ve had mostly good luck with their rifle brass but quite honestly much of the Winchester brass I’ve bought in the last several years was probably on the shelf for awhile. Before this latest shortage Winchester made a lot of brass for some of the Winchester cartridges I enjoy most and I stocked up. When this silliness is over I hope they make the brass we crave!

Mike

  

One of the big factors why we can’t get some products is the current war.  Lapua for one, has stopped most commercial brass manufacturing because of the war effort.  I’m sure other products and manufacturers are affected too.  Lapua sent out a post in late October.  They have no idea when they will start again.  When I got the notice I was already late.  It was hard for me to find what I needed just to last a year or so.  I had to buy some brass I have never used before.  Luckily my brass supply for the Winchesters is not hurting.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
November 18, 2022 - 7:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Chuck said

One of the big factors why we can’t get some products is the current war.

  

Forget Lapua; 200+ tons of ammo donated by US so far:  https://www.guns.com/news/2021/11/18/88-tons-of-us-ammo-arrives-in-ukraine

The 88 tons is just the latest shipment, as this report details.

Anybody care to explain how, with Britain, Germany, & France being among the richest countries in world, this got to be America’s war in their back-yard?  65 billion $ & counting.  What diseases might be cured for that kind of money, or doctors & nurses put through med school?  The nearest Emergency Room to my town (which I’ve had reason to use 3 times when no other facility was open) has been closed for lack of operating funds, leaving the next nearest one 25 m. away–a long way to drive over 2-lane country roads.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
27
November 19, 2022 - 1:50 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said

TXGunNut said

I’m not a serious rifle target shooter, the case weight helps me cull the outliers. I also clean up the flash holes and trim to uniform length (after sizing) with RP cases, something I don’t have to do with Hornady cases. These steps are probably not necessary for hunting ammo but I build pretty good hunting ammo. I’m not knocking RP cases, they were my standard for years. I don’t need the premium brass but I appreciate the little bit of extra quality I get from Hornady. I’m a big fan of Winchester pistol brass and I’ve had mostly good luck with their rifle brass but quite honestly much of the Winchester brass I’ve bought in the last several years was probably on the shelf for awhile. Before this latest shortage Winchester made a lot of brass for some of the Winchester cartridges I enjoy most and I stocked up. When this silliness is over I hope they make the brass we crave!

Mike

  

One of the big factors why we can’t get some products is the current war.  Lapua for one, has stopped most commercial brass manufacturing because of the war effort.  I’m sure other products and manufacturers are affected too.  Lapua sent out a post in late October.  They have no idea when they will start again.  When I got the notice I was already late.  It was hard for me to find what I needed just to last a year or so.  I had to buy some brass I have never used before.  Luckily my brass supply for the Winchesters is not hurting.

  

I’ve always wanted to try some Lapua brass but was never able to find it when I wanted to try it for a reloading project. I can count the serious target rifles I’ve owned on the fingers of one hand and still have enough to salute our departing Speaker. I’m very aware of some of the various benchrest techniques but quite honestly if I had a first-rate target rifle and made ammo using the closest tolerances posssible and best components available I’d still have a loose nut behind the butt screwing things up. I’ve been very fortunate to own some sporting rifles capable of very impressive accuracy and my level of loading consistency is adequate for having a little fun with some wonderful old rifles. 
Back to the OP I think if we could find a load that works in one rifle it may work in another rifle or two. Then we could figure out what works in one rifle that didn’t like the first load and try to figure out what the difference is. Should start with the rifle(s) with the best bores and go from there. I don’t think we’ll need any heroic loading measures to make these old guns shoot unless there are mechanical issues.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4571
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
November 19, 2022 - 9:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said

Chuck said

TXGunNut said

I’m not a serious rifle target shooter, the case weight helps me cull the outliers. I also clean up the flash holes and trim to uniform length (after sizing) with RP cases, something I don’t have to do with Hornady cases. These steps are probably not necessary for hunting ammo but I build pretty good hunting ammo. I’m not knocking RP cases, they were my standard for years. I don’t need the premium brass but I appreciate the little bit of extra quality I get from Hornady. I’m a big fan of Winchester pistol brass and I’ve had mostly good luck with their rifle brass but quite honestly much of the Winchester brass I’ve bought in the last several years was probably on the shelf for awhile. Before this latest shortage Winchester made a lot of brass for some of the Winchester cartridges I enjoy most and I stocked up. When this silliness is over I hope they make the brass we crave!

Mike

  

One of the big factors why we can’t get some products is the current war.  Lapua for one, has stopped most commercial brass manufacturing because of the war effort.  I’m sure other products and manufacturers are affected too.  Lapua sent out a post in late October.  They have no idea when they will start again.  When I got the notice I was already late.  It was hard for me to find what I needed just to last a year or so.  I had to buy some brass I have never used before.  Luckily my brass supply for the Winchesters is not hurting.

  

I’ve always wanted to try some Lapua brass but was never able to find it when I wanted to try it for a reloading project. I can count the serious target rifles I’ve owned on the fingers of one hand and still have enough to salute our departing Speaker. I’m very aware of some of the various benchrest techniques but quite honestly if I had a first-rate target rifle and made ammo using the closest tolerances posssible and best components available I’d still have a loose nut behind the butt screwing things up. I’ve been very fortunate to own some sporting rifles capable of very impressive accuracy and my level of loading consistency is adequate for having a little fun with some wonderful old rifles. 

Back to the OP I think if we could find a load that works in one rifle it may work in another rifle or two. Then we could figure out what works in one rifle that didn’t like the first load and try to figure out what the difference is. Should start with the rifle(s) with the best bores and go from there. I don’t think we’ll need any heroic loading measures to make these old guns shoot unless there are mechanical issues.

 

Mike

  

Since I load every week for my target guns I have learned a few things that will help us with our Winchesters too.  I do not try to get my Winchesters to shoot like target guns but I do like them as accurate as practical. Lapua brass was used as an example of what is happening in the industry right now that is causing us extra pains to find components.  Believe me I totally am the loose nut behind the butt.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
29
November 20, 2022 - 1:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck-
It was not my intention to minimalize the accuracy of old Winchesters or discourage trying advanced techniques to reloading for them. As you have probably found some of these old Winchesters can really shoot! Some of the techniques you use can certainly be used in some of these exceptional rifles. I wish I had figured this out while I was still able to take full advantage of tang or receiver sights. Of course Winchester made some mighty fine target rifles as exemplified by target versions of the Single Shot, M70 and the M52, to name just a few.

My brother just sent me a pic of a recovered hunting bullet that travelled much of the length of a feral hog Friday evening. He was hunting with a modern Super Grade M70 and has been using hunting loads built on my loading bench for over three decades. He won’t hunt with factory loads because even a good Sporter rifle can benefit from carefully built hand loads. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4571
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
November 20, 2022 - 7:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said
Chuck-

He won’t hunt with factory loads because even a good Sporter rifle can benefit from carefully built hand loads. 

 

Mike

  

If I were still able to really get around and do some hunting I would use hand loads whenever possible.  Any gun can benefit from carefully built hand loads.  It is harder to do much for straight wall rimmed cases.  Especially so because of the lack of target grade brass.  That’s why I do what I can.

If you want to sort brass make sure it is all trimmed to the same length and spend $5 for one of the plugs and weigh them full of water.  If you use a bottle neck case you must fire form the brass so the shoulder is up against the chamber wall.  This may take a couple of firings. If so neck size between firings. Then during sizing bring the shoulder .002″ back from touching. Pick a powder and primer, do a powder ladder test at .2 grain increments to see if you can find a stable node, fps, for at least 2 steps.  Then do bullet seating tests.  Use straight shaft expander mandrels. The tip is tapered but these will keep the entire length of the neck the same.  Experiment to find the best diameter expander to keep your bullets from moving or exhausting powder when fired.  The least amount of squeeze required is what you want.  For hunting you want more neck tension than for target shooting.  Measure the neck diameter of a sized case then measure it again after seating a bullet.  The difference in .001″ is the neck tension.  I would recommend .003″ NT to start.  If you go this way you will not have to roll crimp and the entire length of the bullet has the same grip.  Get a hand primer that is accurate to .001″ and seat your primers consistently to the best seating depth.  You have to experiment here.  Start by uniforming the depth of the primer pockets.  Measure a bunch of primers.  You want to know how thick the entire primers are and just the thickness of the cup.  Rule of thumb is seat the primer so the cup bottoms out.  This makes sure the anvils are all touching the bottom of the pocket.  Start with the primers seated .001″ below flush then try seating deeper .001″ at a time.  You are likely to find a depth that your ES/SD is best along with the group size.  Next experiment with bullet seating depth. It really doesn’t matter how far off the lands you are. Start with the bullets just off the lands and move them away at .005″ increments. Your groups will tell you what the barrel likes.  Rule of thumb is .020″ off the lands or the same amount shorter than the magazine.  In our case it may be the max length that will cycle through the action.  One of my target guns the bullets are at least .080″ off the lands just to get them short enough to fit my magazine.  I then use a barrel tuner to find by best groups. 

So, in addition to a set of calipers and maybe a bullet comparator all you need are the plugs, expander mandrels, a really accurate primer seater and the equipment to take the measurement.  Calipers will do this but are not as easy to use.  The big ticket item is the chronograph.  The magneto speed is the cheapest.  If you mount this to your barrel you have to remember that if it is slightly loose your point of impact can change.  Those that I shoot with can mount them to the chassis.  Sometimes you may have to use the MS for velocity and shoot for groups with it off the gun.

Pick and choose what you wish but doing a powder ladder test is a must.  You want a stable load that is not showing any pressure signs. Bullet seating tests are necessary.  In my opinion neck tension is the next most important thing to do.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 564
Member Since:
September 19, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
November 21, 2022 - 4:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Folks,  I have some further, personal experience with poor QC by Winchester ammunition, and what seems to be the response so far.  Long version is I love to hunt crows.  In 2021 I bought a box of 25 shells in 12 ga., 2 and 3/4 inch, 1 and 1/4 oz lead #4s by Super X.  On our opener of 28 Oct 2022 I finally needed to use some.  Several chambered and did well, but then one would not chamber in my Remington Peerless o/u, in either barrel.  I since shot a couple more.  Last evening I then tested the balance of the box, with a total of 4 not chambering for the same reason–brass would audibly hit the face of breech block and refuse to chamber.  I have a 12 ga MEC loader with the finger type resizing station, so removed deprime punch and just resized those 4, which then dropped right into the chambers.  Following Clarence’s comments, I called up Winchester ammo customer service and filled out their complaint form on line saying they needed to check as they had a QC problem.  That resulted in getting an e-mail today saying “sorry, please fill out this form”.  Its the same form.  Lots of help so far–not!  I don’t need reimbursement.  I don’t need to be coddled.  I DO NEED to know I won’t have to test new boxes of Super X before taking them to the field.  FWIW, Super X has been the only brand of heavy field loads I’ve found last couple of years around here.  If I find any other brand, guess which I will buy?! Just saying.  Surely some company will fill this void.  TimCry

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
November 21, 2022 - 4:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

tim tomlinson said Following Clarence’s comments, I called up Winchester ammo customer service and filled out their complaint form on line saying they needed to check as they had a QC problem.  That resulted in getting an e-mail today saying “sorry, please fill out this form”.  Its the same form.  Lots of help so far–not!
  

Typical (so-called) customer service!  However, if you’ve gone this far, I hope you won’t give up, which of course is exactly what the sorry SOBs hope you’ll do. 

Every once in a while, if you persevere, a company will respond as if they actually appreciated your business.  About 4 yrs ago, I notified Thompson’s Water Seal (which I use on the benches at my Club range) that a gallon I bought at the hardware store had turned to jelly in the can; they sent be a case, 4 gals, in compensation, that I’m still using!

Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1042
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33
November 21, 2022 - 5:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Tim, you seem to have gotten the same run-around I got with the Lyman 45-90 dies.  They admitted there was a problem but there was no offer to remedy in my case. 

I havent used Winchester rifle ammunition in 15 years or so since I started loading my own.  But back then, performance-wise, it seemed there were better options on the market with Hornady or Remington.  Amongst the hunters I know that take down a lot of animals, I dont know a single one that uses Winchester ammo, or Barnes for that matter–some folks may like both, but I havent met them yet.  

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4571
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34
November 21, 2022 - 5:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I did some shotgun 12 ga. ammo testing a few years back and got good results with Winchester Blindside.  I usually shoot Heavy Metal but the Blindside did well in my gun. I tested some Win Supreme and some Remington.  All testing was with 3″ steel #2 shot.  Remington was the worst.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6281
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
November 21, 2022 - 6:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said
Tim, you seem to have gotten the same run-around I got with the Lyman 45-90 dies.  They admitted there was a problem but there was no offer to remedy in my case.

Pathetic.  Least they could have done was offer to exchange a new set for those you have; perhaps no better, but at minimal cost to the company, it would have demonstrated a semblance of concern for their customer.  Most American companies, parts of huge conglomerates, just don’t care.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4571
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36
November 21, 2022 - 6:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Is 45-90 one of the dies RCBS still makes?  In the recent past I have had problems with RCBS products and they were quick to make me happy.  Just about the time they quit making “custom” dies I was trying to get some stuff for my 22 WCF and they gave it to me for free.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: TXGunNut
Guest(s) 171
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6281
TXGunNut: 4970
Chuck: 4571
1873man: 4282
steve004: 4160
Big Larry: 2324
twobit: 2291
TR: 1710
mrcvs: 1706
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12650
Posts: 109996

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1745
Members: 8791
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation