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Winchester 1866 grabado por L.R. Nimschke
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February 4, 2013 - 7:07 am
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There are weapons that one sees from a young age in books and thinks that he will never be able to see or have in their hands, fewer get to acquire.

But sometimes dreams are fulfilled, days ago I bought this rifle Winchester 1866 35XXX octagonal barrel 24"

The brass presented remains of silver plated on the inside, on the outside almost has disappeared.

My question is… As I clean it to restore it and what it should not do so as not lose value?

Greetings from Argentina

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February 4, 2013 - 7:40 am
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Great find! Don’t clean it what so ever! A very high level Winchester conservator person, familiar with how to maintain and preserve the gun, must be consulted! Any "cleaning" you do on it will only take away thousands of dollars of value with every inch you "clean"!

Just put it back together and enjoy it as is!

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February 4, 2013 - 8:36 am
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I agree with the advice CJS57 gave you, please do not clean it and do not polish the brass, señor. That is a beautiful, original old ’66. The dark patina on the brass parts is important, do not polish it. Be extremely careful of the screw slots as you assemble it. I would recommend using special hollow ground screwdriver blades that are the proper width and thickness for the screw slots. Once it is reassembled, I would suggest purchasing a small can of Conservator’s wax (or Renaissance Wax). Do not use any other kind of wax but one of these two. Apply a thin coat to your rifle, the wood and the metal. Wait about five minutes and then wipe off the extra wax with a very soft cloth. The first time you do this, the cloth that you apply the wax with may get dirty with dust and oil residue from the rifle. Keep changing the cloth for a clean one as you apply the special wax. A few days later, apply a second coat of Conservator’s Wax with clean soft cloths.

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February 4, 2013 - 12:06 pm
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Beautiful engraving!

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February 4, 2013 - 12:19 pm
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What you have there is a $15,000 gun as it sits but if you do any cleaning it will detract from its value.

Bob

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February 4, 2013 - 1:39 pm
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Thank you Pauline. This is the weapon that ask by mail in August if the engraving was original.

Brass, of course, wasn’t going to polish it. But bluing parts or interior parts, nor should I wash them?

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February 4, 2013 - 2:23 pm
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You can wipe the outside down with a oil rag and the insides can be cleaned out a little more aggressively since it does look like it is caked up with rust and crud.

Bob

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February 5, 2013 - 10:00 am
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Thank you for posting that in its raw state and allowing me (us) to see all the pristine beauty of its age. It’s a true beauty with great pictures for all to study.
Thanks again.
Laugh Gene

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February 5, 2013 - 4:57 pm
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That is an absolute beauty! Just to let you know, there was an Engraved 1866 that sold at RIA’s 2012 auction and the hammer fell at $80,500 I believe. If I’m not mistaken , it was’t a signed gun like yours. The condition of their gun was better but you have a SIGNED LDN!!! How cool is that man!!!
You have a once in a lifetime gun, for most of us, and I would follow the advice of the others here and lovingly clean it then put it somewhere dry and dark. I am green with envy, unless you paid $200k, and then I am just jealous Laugh

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February 5, 2013 - 8:47 pm
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The LDN stamps are not original, they are double stamped and stamped over the engraving which no engraver would do plus you have 2 "LDN" next to each other.

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February 5, 2013 - 9:37 pm
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1873man said
The LDN stamps are not original, they are double stamped and stamped over the engraving which no engraver would do plus you have 2 "LDN" next to each other.

Bob

Bob,

I had the exact same thought… Nimschke would not have engraved his intials twice right next to one another, and he would not have stamped his intials over and across the engraved lines. Something does not smell right about this.

Bert

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February 6, 2013 - 7:22 am
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Afer going back to see what you guys were talking about I see what you mean. To be honest, I hadn’t even notices the second stamp in the scroll work. I say paid attention to all the other pics of the engraving and got completely wrapped up in those.
You guys are the experts here, not me. I am definately not versed enough in the engraving department to say what LDN would or wouldn’t do. I don’t have any LDN "marked" guns at the house to compare with Cry I wish I did 😀

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February 6, 2013 - 8:18 am
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Gonna throw out a couple of thoughts:
The lower L.D.N looks like it was stamped not engraved, you see doubling of the letters especially the L. Very common when stamping by hand, you get a bounce if the stamp is not firmly fixtured or held.

If the rifle was sent back for a touch-up or additional engraving was added at a later date, would the engraver again add his initials?

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February 6, 2013 - 8:40 am
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I don’t think he would add a second set of initials. I also think if the engraver touched up or added engraving, the engraver would of have the skill to stamp his initials in a professional manner. It looks like a farmer did the stamping.

Bob

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February 6, 2013 - 9:14 am
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I agree with Mike. I have seen engravers initials double stamped before.

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February 6, 2013 - 12:12 pm
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Controversy breeds knowledge!
If you have R. L. Wilson’s book, L. D. Nimschke Firearms Engraver, turn to page 50. This same pattern is there. There is a slight difference in the wolf mane but other than that, get the magnifying glass out as I have.
I also noticed the signature when I first looked at the rifle and went for the book. There are no examples of Nimschke signing outside or across lines of an enclosure. There are no examples of double signatures. It does appear that the L.D. N. was added later.
I question only the signature. I’ll no expert. For the question why? I will refer to the last paragraph on page xxii. The trouble with the plates in the book you can’t see the hand. Maybe Pauline is more familiar with that and could venture into some discussion on it.
I would again thank Jose for posting the great pictures. I’m loven it! Laugh
Gene

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February 6, 2013 - 12:56 pm
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I have seen engravers stamped signatures, from J Ulrich to N.K. doubled. For anyone who has ever tried to use a stamp they would know that it is not that easy. Single letter stamps are easier to get correct than multiple letter stamps. I have been using Metal stamps for years and still manage to double them myself once in a while. The only guy I ever knew who could use a stamp in his sleep and not double it was Nick Colomonico, a barrel man in the Custom Shop. He restamped inscriptions day in and day out on bbls., receivers and frames. The engravers were required to be able to make stamps but did not do a whole lot of actual stamping. I have had access to Nick and John Kusmit’s collection of smoke prints. I have seen engravers signatures stamped over engraving lines and also on top of grass, stumps, rocks and scrollwork. Are the Nimschke initials on this gun legit? Why would someone take a gun that is obviously engraved by Nimschke and put his initials on it? If they did so it must have been an awful long time ago as the metal has the same age to it. Maybe Nimschke had a few pops and then whacked his name on it. Maybe he liked it so much he did it twice. Who knows? To say engravers never doubled stamps or went over the lines is just not true.

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February 6, 2013 - 4:03 pm
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Wow! There it is!

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February 7, 2013 - 5:25 am
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Here is a gun that is Nimschke engraved and has the LDN initials marked on it. This rifle is not a Winchester but has been verified by records that it was engraved for a customer. These initials looked like they were engraved. ❓

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February 7, 2013 - 7:39 am
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They were engraved onto the head of the stamp! And then the stamp was applied. You will notice the initials are identical in font, spacing, and perhaps size as those on the 66 (hard to tell without physically comparing them) as on your single shot gun. Engravers use countless types and shapes of stamps especially in pattern making.

Nimschke was a freelance engraver, and he wasn’t bound by rules like the Ulrichs or other "Factory" engravers. And he could of signed his pieces however he liked. I do believe there are some very high end 66s that have up too (5) five of his signatures on them.

In fact the only "engraved" signature I’ve seen oddly was that of Herman Ulrich and it was concealed underneath the stock on the upper tang. Herman rarely signed his work, so its quite probable this is why when he did sign his work, he engraved it. According to R.L. Wilson several of the Ulrich’s works that are stamped with the "J. Ulrich" stamp are actually some of Herman’s work.

Sincerely,
Maverick

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