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I echo your sentiments above Bob. Once you start down that road there is no chance of return.
What I don’t understand is why the media keeps talking about new background checks laws for gun shows or for internet sales. Most of the things they are talking about are already on the books and enforced. Their intent is to tweak and expand those laws to make it virtually impossible to be able to transact business, purchase a firearm (antique or not), gift a firearm, or buy and sell as a private individual. The "gun show loophole" or "internet loophole" for modern firearms exists and is being perpetrated by people who have criminal intent in mid and they should be punished, not the 99% of law abiding citizens who take part in buying or selling through these forums. Its law enforcements job to find these people and deal with them, not punish the gun community as a whole for the trespasses of a few. The mentality is to throw out the baby with the bath water.
The fact remains that if someone wants a firearm they will lie, cheat, steal, and kill to get it and there is nothing that can that can be done to stop it unless they find themselves at the end of the long arm of the law or the receiving end of the barrel. These mass shootings by sociopaths seeking some sort of joy, notoriety, attention, fame, or other are a testament to our failure as a culture to instill the value of the family unit and the teachings of morality. I understand that some people have no control over it and never will–there is a place for them. The failure also falls solidly on the individuals or institutions that are aware a threat exists but choose not to safeguard themselves or the public. Its a systemic problem that has been chosen to be ignored for too long.
The PR dates controversy dovetails into the discussion above regarding the proposed new gun laws and universal background checks. As expressed before, I can agree that the PR dates are a worthy implement in our chest of collecting tools, and if adopted by the ATF so be it. This being said, I have have yet to see expressed or come to understand the wisdom in stirring the pot and pushing to establish a more limiting benchmark for antique vs. non-antique with the ATF. Maybe someone can enlighten me with the positive aspects or advantages to the proposition (for the collector and the average Joe with a Winchester) because I cant quite get past its limitations. From my vantage its created a lot of confusion, got a lot of people PO’d (as in the genesis of this subject/ forum post) and would hate to think that someday it may get some poor ignorant old soul incarcerated because in the pages of a far away collector internet forum it was decidedly so.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
My veiws and comments have never been about the changing of the
1968 gun law. As I have made seveal post on this issue after making several phone calls to the BATF they don’t seem to concerned about the
antique issue as they are far to busy right now to care. What they can not
explain is why on their web-site, is the defination on an antique firearm
described by the NFA. One point I want to make is that I am not 100 %
sure either way. Think about about the way these antique guns are listed.
For sale Winchester Model 1894 30 WCF Antiuue No FFL needed
ships right to your door.
It has never been my intent to upset anyone on this issue only to debate it and let others know what I have come up with.
I would like to ask one question from anyone and everyone that is willing to reply.
My question. Do you think or would you be willing to sell over the
internet and ship directly to someone clear across the United States a
Winchester Model 1894 Ten Shot Repeating Rifle in 30-30 caliber made
in the year 1898???? I would be thankfull for replies
quantrez said
Do you think or would you be willing to sell over the
internet and ship directly to someone clear across the United States a
Winchester Model 1894 Ten Shot Repeating Rifle in 30-30 caliber made
in the year 1898???? I would be thankfull for replies
As a Canadian, I contacted BATF and spoke with them directly with regard to shipping an antique Winchester (it was an 1886 45-70 made in 1888) directly to a buyer in the USA. The fellow with the BATF assured me that antiques are not regulated, and that I could ship them to anyone I wished in the USA. I have proceeded to do so at least three different times. Each time they had to clear US Customs. All of them went through without any problems. The bottom line is how the law is interpreted and the way it is interpreted is that antiques are not regulated and they can be shipped to anyone. No FFL required. I imagine this is done hundreds of times, if not thousands of times per year. As far as I can see, there simply is no issue here for discussion. As far as the BATF is concerned, there also seems to be no issue here for discussion.
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National Firearms Act Definitions
Antique Firearm
26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade
This is directly off the BATF web site.
Quantrez,
There is no law that I am aware prohibiting you from sending an antique firearm to any destination in the United States. Over the years I have shipped many a pre-1898 rifle or carbine directly to the buyer and never thought twice about it. As Win38-55 pointed out, antique firearms can be sent from Canada directly to your doorstep in the USA. Im not sure if the same rules apply when shipping from the USA to Canada? Non-antique firearms from Canada to the USA have to go through an FFL.
I see the quandary, this could be interpreted from many different perspectives
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
g) Antique firearm
The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means any firearm
not designed or redesigned for using rim
fire or conventional center fire ignition with
fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before
1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system or
replica thereof, whether actually manufactured
before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm
using fixed ammunition manufactured in or
before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer
manufactured in the United States and is not
readily available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade
This is also off the BATF Web site
Section 2.2 Antique firearm. Firearms defined by the NFA as “antique firearms” are not subject to
any controls under the NFA.22 The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture
and the type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898
that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed
ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also
an antique firearm.
NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually
manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the
United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an
antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition
availability standards of the definition.
Concerning ammunition availability, it is important to note that a specific type of fixed ammunition that
has been out of production for many years may again become available due to increasing interest in
older firearms. Therefore, the classification of a specific NFA firearm as an antique can change if
ammunition for the weapon becomes readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Here is one more it is directly off the ATF web site in the NFA hand book
1892Takedown said
As Win38-55 pointed out, antique firearms can be sent from Canada directly to your doorstep in the USA. Im not sure if the same rules apply when shipping from the USA to Canada?
Same both ways. I’ve imported several antique firearms from the USA with no paper work required. What qualifies as an antique in Canada is slightly different, however.
I would verify what the BATF website says with an actual copy of the law. However, as I said before, it is how the law is interpreted by the authorities that counts. That interpretation is often a result of legal cases and their decisions rendered. As far as we are all concerned, the actual ammunition chambered by antique firearms is irrelevant to the BATF, as long as the Winchester was made prior to 1899. I’m certainly not losing any sleep over it.
A.Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and
I am going to through this in and this is where all the confusion on the
1968 gun law lays.
This did not come from the ATF it just came from a small town lawyer
lawyer. There is no doubt there are a lot of changes going on at the ATF
web site. if you haven’t checked it out lately do so. If you will read the
first sentence that is posted above it is the first sentence in the 1968 gun
law. When the law was written if there was a period directly after 1898
we wouldn’t be having this discussion PERIOD. But for some reason they
used a semi-colon; The semi-colon is a continunce in a sentence.
One can read this either way I guess. But by the use of the semi-colon
it ties all fire-arms original or replicas to the availablity of the ammunition.
The ATF is not where one really needs to be concerned for the most part
but by researching the website they are giving themselves some wiggle
room. Check it out. Everything I posted is directly off their site.
Just say by chance you sell and ship a Model 1894 were talking about
to a convicted felon and he goes on a shooting rampage. There is a
good chance he could kill ten people. I wouldn’t want to be in those shoes. This whole post got started by mentallapse who i don’t belive
set out to cheat any one. His hand was called about the DOM he listed
as being wrong but the bad part was nobody paid any attention to the
serial number but me when I questioned it. It was not an antique by any
standards. By no means do I belive he would have done this on purpose
but what if the rifle had sold first off??????. I don’t belive the ATF will ever have time now to figure this out, this discussion will be decided on
in a courtroom.
quantrez said
g) Antique firearm
The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means any firearm
not designed or redesigned for using rim
fire or conventional center fire ignition with
fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before
1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system or
replica thereof, whether actually manufactured
before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm
using fixed ammunition manufactured in or
before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer
manufactured in the United States and is not
readily available in the ordinary channels of
commercial tradeThis is also off the BATF Web site
As I have told you before, the definition you keep quoting is not correct or accurate as per the written U.S. Code. What part of that do you not understand ❓
The BATF does not have the correct definition listed on their website. Please post the direct link to BATF website where it states the definition.
As quoted directly from the U.S. Federal Code;
"Per U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section §921, paragraph (16), an "Antique" firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) [color=red:971b48247b]any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— [/color:971b48247b]
[color=red:971b48247b](i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade[/color:971b48247b]; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."
end quote.
Now, exactly what part of the U.S. Code (law) makes it illegal to sell and ship any "pre-1899" firearm, regardless of what cartridge it is chambered for?
Once again, I have two very good friends who are practicing attorneys, and neither one of them reads anything in the U.S. Code that prevents me from selling or shipping an 1897 vintage Model 1894 chambered in 30 WCF (30-30) to someone outside of my home state. And Yes, I would ship said firearm without any qualms what-so-ever.
The "Antique" firearm definition that you keep quoting is WRONG ❗ We have had this debate before, and it does not need to be repeated again.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Well People,
Thank You, for your intriguing replies to my post, I didn’t mean to upset anybody or beat a dead horse, just wanted to know other perspectives and opinions. Because there is a huge difference between what was known (past tense) and what is now known (present tense). But go by the Numbers that BATF currently uses.
As for the original post, mistakes are made, we are only human and no harm or fowl in my opinion, I just wish I had the money to buy some of his Winchesters.
quantrez, I think it is the "sellers prerogative" to request that the transaction of a Antique Firearm be shipped to and completed by a FFL. of the Buyers Choice.
Enjoy the Weekend, hokie
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
"Instead of The Space Age"
From
The Twilight Zone
Thanks, Bert. That is exactly what I suspected when I suggested in my earlier post that one look at what the law actually said, rather than BATF’s website. The U.S. Federal Code trumps what it says on BATF’s website any day of the week.
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Antique Firearms
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This fact sheet is intended for individuals who wish to acquire an antique firearm. It presents information about how the Firearms Act applies to firearms that meet the definition of an antique, as set out in the Criminal Code and corresponding regulations.
The Definition of an Antique
The Criminal Code defines an antique firearm as:
•Any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition, and that has not been re-designed to discharge such ammunition, or
•Any firearm prescribed to be an antique firearm.
The following firearms are prescribed to be antique firearms under the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms:
Black Powder Reproductions:
•of flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearms, other than handguns, manufactured after 1897;
(Note that all other reproductions of long guns are considered non-restricted firearms. They don’t need to be registered but a licence to possess them is required. As an example, reproductions of percussion cap muzzle-loading firearms like American Civil War Enfield and Springfield rifles are considered non-restricted firearms and not antiques.)
Rifles:
•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than .22 Calibre Short, .22 Calibre Long or .22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges;
•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine;
Win3855 Is this the correct reading of canada’s antique firearm law
The RCMP fact sheets can be a bit misleading because they do not quote the law, but a summary or paraphrase of it. The antique collectors up here don’t go by the RCMP summaries, but refer directly to the Canadian Criminal Code. The portion that you quote above is not wrong, so far as I can see, but it is missing some important details. To get it straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, look up the Canada Criminal Code. You can get a good start on the relevant sections here http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?217529-Link-to-CFC-Antique-regs Pay special attention to Bill C-28. Our definition of antiques is different from the US definition.
Bert first off I didn’t mean to drag you back into this discussion sorry.
Also I want you to take a look at the number of veiws this topic has drawn. Over 1400 in just a few days. Wow there seems to be a lot of
intrest in this issue. I spent a few more hours today on the phone trying
to find someone at the ATF that could explain their definition of a antique
fire-arm. They don’t seem to think their definition is wrong and are sure
not willing to change their mind either. I dont want to take up time deb-ating the law with you or anyone elese for that matter. That being said
I do disagree with your opinion about ignoring the ATF web site and for
the most part telling the 1400 people that have veiwed this post that never
mind what the ATF says Bert knows best, theirs nothing to worry about.
Not to mention that you represent the Winchester Collector site as well.
Their is sure a reason for what the ATF is up to and you know that as well as me. You don’t seem to mind to inform someone that they don’t
have the right information cocerning the Cody records that no one at
the ATF seems to have a clue what your talking about? Why didn’t you
confront the ATF agent that contacted you about them being wrong, and
I do find it odd that the agent would contact you to start with might want
to keep your eyes open. All I want is for anyone that it might pertain
to about this issue is to know what is all over the ATF web site then if they
choose to ignore it that is fine by me. Mainly I just feel it is wrong to more
or less give advise that goes in direct contrast with ATF even if they have
the facts wrong at lest it is without advising as to the ATF’s stand on the
issue.
quantrez, I have seen enough mistakes made on enforcement agency websites to have learned my lesson years ago …. ALWAYS look at what the law actually says, not what the enforcement agency website says. Neither the BATF nor any other law enforcement agency has the authority to change the US Federal Code. If there is a contradiction between what the US Federal Code says and what BATF says, ALWAYS go with the US Federal Code.
Bert has kindly posted what the US Federal Code actually says. That is not Bert’s opinion, it is the US Federal Code. If you are a firearms owner, it is important that you recognize and are familiar with the US Federal Code. I could be wrong, but from your comments you appear to be ignoring what the US Federal Code actually says, and focusing on a flawed version available on a BATF website. In court, it is the US Federal Code that you will have to answer to. None of us have the authority to change the US Federal Code …. not me, not you, not the BATF. With that in mind, forget the BATF website, go straight to the US Federal Code and print off the relevant section of the US Federal Code and hang it on the wall in your office. If you are nervous about an enforcement officer giving you a problem, carry a photocopy of the US Federal Code with you. We do that all the time up here because we find that most law enforcement officers are not that familiar with what the law actually says re. antiques but are happy to find out, chapter and verse.
Summary: The US Federal Code is your huckleberry. If you want to know what the US Federal Code actually says, then get an actual copy of the relevant sections of the US Federal Code (which Bert has graciously posted).
quantrez,
I beg to differ… you very intentionally brought this subject back up for arguments sake, and I am absolutely tired of it 👿
As Kirk (38-55) so eruditely stated, the definition of what constitutes a legal "Antique" it is NOT my personal "opinion"… it is the written law, and you appear to be way too dogmantic in you erroneous and mistaken understanding and belief about this subject. You are not asking the right people the correct questions. The BATF is staffed by a large number of people who have no idea what the factual information really is.
I also am very angry at your inferrence that my attempts to correct your misquoted information is simply because "Bert knows best". My sole intent is that for those interested people who can read and comprehend clearly written law, to have access to the true facts.
This statement you made also angers me greatly, and I am not going to tolerate your petulant attacks any further!
You don’t seem to mind to inform someone that they don’t have the right information cocerning the Cody records that no one at the ATF seems to have a clue what your talking about?
This statement is also accusatory and it infers that I am not telling the truth;
Why didn’t you confront the ATF agent that contacted you about them being wrong, and I do find it odd that the agent would contact you to start with might want to keep your eyes open.
There was no need to "confront" the special agent who contacted me… he asked that I help him to determine the actual date of manufacture for a specific serial number, and I informed him what it was, and that most of the currently published lists in print and on the internet are not accurate. I them provided him (via email) with the accurate and verified antique serial number cut-off list. They now have it on file, and know where and how to verify it.
In response to your statement;
Mainly I just feel it is wrong to more or less give advise that goes in direct contrast with ATF even if they have the facts wrong
That is your opinion… not mine, or the legal system’s. I will continue to inform all that ask the question, that the information you claim is listed on the BATF website, is in direct contradiction to the U.S. Code, and that the BATF does not have the authority to modify said code.
Finally, any further negative responses directed at myself or the WACA organization from you will result in an immediate and permanent suspension of your access to this website. This is my final warning to you.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Trying to prove a point with the ATF. This is why we end up having our constitutional rights shoved down our throats. You are not trying to get the ATF to tell you what you want to hear you are trying to get them to admit they are wrong. Fools are those that open there mouths and type there words and prove themselves to be foolish. If you do not want to ship a gun prior to 1898, DONT SHIP THE GUN. If I want to ship one that is my business.
It is fools like you that will continue to piss off everyone at every agency and cast a light on all of us that is not in our best interest.
Freedom is my choice.
This is a great site for information sharing interesting trivia ,and exposing fraudulent representation on the guns is a wonderful and valuable learning experience I am really enjoying it, but i really dont understand the need for political interference in an already troubled situation. I would think that whistle blowing and trouble-making with Government would be best left to the Anti- gun groups who are undoutably doing so anyway (its there chosen role) A common sense statement like this is certainly worth a thousand pages of legalese
"continue to piss off everyone at every agency and cast a light on all of us that is not in our best interest".
VEEERY INTERESTING!!!
I’m reading all of this with thoughtful interest. Accusations of lying, threats of being cut from the forum, and all that jazz. I had a few glasses of merlot while I was out tonight and I think I will refrain from commenting tonight for fear of retaliation, maybe tomorrow when my head is clearer.
I was at a local auction this morning. I went there to look at and possibly bid on a Colt SAA serial # 64203. What do you think they had posted on the front of the case were the ANTIQUE pistol was? The BATF web site definition of an antique. The colt would have to be registered. I had had this same discussion with this auctioneer about two or three years ago to the point of almost blows, so this time I tried the more subtle approach. I explained Hartman’s and Flayderman’s and others opinion and the law. His answer was, he goes by what’s on the BATF site and that he could go to almost any sporting goods store and purchase 44-40 black powder center fire cartridges and therefore the colt was not an antique.
My point is, should we be trying to beat up the ATF about our definition of our antique serial numbers which does or doesn’t benefit a few, or direct our energies at getting them to post the proper definition of an antique on their web site.
I hope I didn’t upset anyone. If I did well “look at all my trials and tribulations, sinking in a gentle pool of wine”. I’m going to have another glass. Thank you and good night.
Gene 
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