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GB rifle for sale
April 14, 2013
9:44 am
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This old rifle is for sale presently. Seller says gun is an ELW, and also says the letter that he has in hand states that. I thought that ELW had a tappered barrel and a ramp front sight in most cases. I am certainly no expert. Please advise if you know. Thanks!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=336529322

April 14, 2013
10:23 am
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The barrel on that rifle is tapered, and it does appear to be an ELW. Too bad somebody drilled & tapped the extra holes in the receiver Cry

The seller has it incorrectly listed as an "antique", and I sent him a message informing him of that fact.

Bert

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April 14, 2013
12:10 pm
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I had come across that auction about the time the auction started. It is a shame that it has the extra holes, as noted.

Bert, what is your assessment on it's value with and without the holes?

James

April 14, 2013
1:32 pm
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Does the fact that the letter does not mention a TD feature bother the experts? I don't know these things...maybe it is common for Winchester to make a mistake and forget to put that in the PR records, thus it would not be there for the letter info???

April 14, 2013
3:51 pm
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Description for Item # 336529322

This is a super nice 1894 takedown. It has an octagon barrel. Did I mention it is an antique. According to the Blue Book and the Winchester Repeating Arms website, this rifle was made in 1898. Serial number is 154950. The wood is near perfect. You will notice the wood to metal fit is beautiful factory work. I really like the thin forearm. The finish is excellent with few handling marks. A very high percentage of the original blue finish remains. A very high percentage of the case color hardening remains as well. This is the first extra light octagon takedown I have seen. The bore in the 26" barrel is bright and shiny and will rate a 10. The action is tight and smooth. A factory letter will accompany the rifle. The letter does not mention the takedown, but you will know it is obviously an original takedown. This is a great piece. The only downside, there are two extra holes in the receiver where a sight was mounted. It is a 30 cal. If you would like to add a very nice rare Winchester Model 1894 to your collection, here it is. I guarantee your satisfaction. For more information go to http://www.americanarmsandantiques.com.

[Information added 4/14/2013 2:18:25 PM]

I used two different books to date this Winchester. According to two more living breathing sources my information is wrong. It would be nice if the authors putting out information would get it together and come up with a common list pertaining to the dates of manufacture.----------------I NO LONGER WANT TO REPRESENT THIS WINCHESTR AS AN ANTIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!According to the two living breathing sources this rifle was made in 1902. I resent being accused of trying to mislead anyone in the purchase of anything belonging to me. I guarantee what I sell with a full no questions asked refund including shipping both ways. If trying to mislead, I would post bad pictures with an as is no return policy. Instead I take a lot of pictures and try my best to post a fair and honest description. The only negative feedback I have received was from someone trying to cheat me. It was not because I tried to cheat him. If you have something to say about me or one of my listings that is fine. Find out the facts before accusing me of only caring about the money. If you don't like my listing, me, or the way I conduct my business, stay away. Do not bid and do not contact me. I don't want your business. If you would just like to help me get the facts straight, please contact me.

April 14, 2013
4:46 pm
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JWM94 said
I had come across that auction about the time the auction started. It is a shame that it has the extra holes, as noted.

Bert, what is your assessment on it's value with and without the holes?

James

James,

With those non-factory holes, my opinion is that the value is something in the $1200 - $1400 range, though it might be tough to get it.

If it did not have those holes, it could have easily been in the $2400 - $2600 range.

Bert

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April 14, 2013
4:54 pm
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quantrez said
Description for Item # 336529322

This is a super nice 1894 takedown. It has an octagon barrel. Did I mention it is an antique. According to the Blue Book and the Winchester Repeating Arms website, this rifle was made in 1898. Serial number is 154950. The wood is near perfect. You will notice the wood to metal fit is beautiful factory work. I really like the thin forearm. The finish is excellent with few handling marks. A very high percentage of the original blue finish remains. A very high percentage of the case color hardening remains as well. This is the first extra light octagon takedown I have seen. The bore in the 26" barrel is bright and shiny and will rate a 10. The action is tight and smooth. A factory letter will accompany the rifle. The letter does not mention the takedown, but you will know it is obviously an original takedown. This is a great piece. The only downside, there are two extra holes in the receiver where a sight was mounted. It is a 30 cal. If you would like to add a very nice rare Winchester Model 1894 to your collection, here it is. I guarantee your satisfaction. For more information go to http://www.americanarmsandantiques.com.

[Information added 4/14/2013 2:18:25 PM]

I used two different books to date this Winchester. According to two more living breathing sources my information is wrong. It would be nice if the authors putting out information would get it together and come up with a common list pertaining to the dates of manufacture.----------------I NO LONGER WANT TO REPRESENT THIS WINCHESTR AS AN ANTIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!According to the two living breathing sources this rifle was made in 1902. I resent being accused of trying to mislead anyone in the purchase of anything belonging to me. I guarantee what I sell with a full no questions asked refund including shipping both ways. If trying to mislead, I would post bad pictures with an as is no return policy. Instead I take a lot of pictures and try my best to post a fair and honest description. The only negative feedback I have received was from someone trying to cheat me. It was not because I tried to cheat him. If you have something to say about me or one of my listings that is fine. Find out the facts before accusing me of only caring about the money. If you don't like my listing, me, or the way I conduct my business, stay away. Do not bid and do not contact me. I don't want your business. If you would just like to help me get the facts straight, please contact me.

I know that I was one of the "two" people who contacted the seller and informed him about the September 1902 date of manufacture. I also know that I was not the person who accused him trying to mislead or cheat anyone.

To the person who did make those accusations (and I know who you are after speaking with Randy), you really do need to reign yourself in, and stop making false accusations and taking everything so personal! You are very rapidly getting yourself a negative reputation in the Winchester collecting community.

Bert

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April 14, 2013
6:33 pm
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JWM94 said
I had come across that auction about the time the auction started. It is a shame that it has the extra holes, as noted.

Bert, what is your assessment on it's value with and without the holes?

James

James,

With those non-factory holes, my opinion is that the value is something in the $1200 - $1400 range, though it might be tough to get it.

If it did not have those holes, it could have easily been in the $2400 - $2600 range.

Bert

Bert,

I can understand the example that you gave which amounts to about a 50% deduction for the extra non-factory holes in the receiver, but what I don't understand is the higher figure you have used. This figure seems awfully low to me for a rifle that appears to be in at least very good overall condition, or was it based on a worst case scenario...since you mentioned that "it could have easily been in the $2400 - $2600 range" were it not for the holes?

James

April 14, 2013
6:47 pm
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James,

Keep in mind that it is not a special order rifle, not an "antique", and it is a 30 W.C.F. It does not have fancy wood, or any other "special" order features. I feel that $2400 - $2600 would be a good starting point if was unmolested. How much more it might have been worth is a useless exercise at this point.

Bert

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April 14, 2013
7:06 pm
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Bert H. said
James,

Keep in mind that it is not a special order rifle, not an "antique", and it is a 30 W.C.F. It does not have fancy wood, or any other "special" order features. I feel that $2400 - $2600 would be a good starting point if was unmolested. How much more it might have been worth is a useless exercise at this point.

Bert

I've kept those things in mind, except for the TD and ELW factors, and was attempting to make some sense out of the condition and price factors for this type of rifle as noted in the RED BOOK. With this in mind, I was attempting to follow your train of thought and figure out the big difference between them and your figures here, and that is how I came up with the comment that concerned the possible worst case scenario factor.

James

April 14, 2013
7:42 pm
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James,

My cohort in crime (Larry) is the one who came up with the values for the Model 1894s... I do not always agree with his numbers, and personally believe that the values listed in the Red Book are slightly too high. That stated, and in retrospect, my estimates on what this rifle would have been worth are most likely a fair bit too low.

Take Down rifles were a standard cataloged item, as were the ELW rifles. As such, I do not consider either one to be a "special" order item. If it were not for those extra holes, it is a very fine ELW.

Bert

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April 14, 2013
7:44 pm
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Bert H. said
James,

My cohort in crime (Larry) is the one who came up with the values for the Model 1894s... I do not always agree with his numbers, and personally believe that the values listed in the Red Book are slightly too high. That stated, and in retrospect, my estimates on what this rifle would have been worth are most likely a fair bit too low.

Take Down rifles were a standard cataloged item, as were the ELW rifles. As such, I do not consider either one to be a "special" order item. If it were not for those extra holes, it is a very fine ELW.

Bert

I'm with you now, Bert, thanks.

April 15, 2013
8:28 am
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Just read this post and looked at the guy's auction. That would be a really fine rifle if not for the extra holes in the receiver. And, I don't see any indication that the seller was trying to deceive anyone. Lots of pictures and good description. As to the date of manufacture, well, we all used the available data before things changed. I thank Bert for defending the seller, even though I don't know him. Seems like an honest guy trying to do right, and doesn't deserve unmerited accusations.

April 15, 2013
9:10 am
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oakridge said
I thank Bert for defending the seller, even though I don't know him. Seems like an honest guy trying to do right, and doesn't deserve unmerited accusations.

I completely agree with you. That stated there is one person among us that owes the seller of that Winchester a very contrite and sincere apology, but I doubt that he is man enough to do it 🙄 .

Bert

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April 15, 2013
9:22 am
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pday wrote:

Does the fact that the letter does not mention a TD feature bother the experts?

It would be a simple exercise to have Jesi recheck the ledger data and make certain that the T/D feature was part of the rifle description. It is common for a series of a dozen or more rifles to have been manufactured as T/D's and just the top and bottom entry noted as such with the intervening rifles having a ditto notation only. These could be easily missed if a person is looking for just one particular SN.

pday wrote:

...maybe it is common for Winchester to make a mistake and forget to put that in the PR records, thus it would not be there for the letter info???

The unique configuration information for each rifle/shotgun was not kept in the Polishing Room serialization records. These data are/were entered in separate ledgers and it is from this information that the factory letter is derived.

Michael

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April 15, 2013
9:46 am
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Agree with Oakridge that this seller was not trying to deceive anyone as to date of manufacture. He used two commonly available lists of dates of manufacture in trying to comply with Federal rules. Which list does the BATF use? That is all that counts.

There must be at least tens of thousands of transactions, going back over many years, involving borderline dates of manufacture of Winchesters and many other makes of firearms. This puts many of those transactions at risk, to the detriment of both buyers & sellers.

April 15, 2013
10:07 am
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I was just very recently personally contacted by the BATF concerning the correct "Antique" serial number cut-off for the Model 1894. They now know to contact the CFM research office for the correct and authentic information, and that is what they are using (for all Winchester models).

Bert

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April 15, 2013
11:45 am
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I read the factory letter that was posted with that rifle and it states that the serial number application date is available but not requested. I am puzzled. I recently got the info on my 'new' Model 1894 and it included the serial application date even though I had not asked for it. Why would they withhold that info unless asked for sometimes and not others? From now on I'll be sure to ask for it if requesting a letter.

It is a beautiful rifle. It is too bad about the extra holes. For a rifle in that high condition with the extra holes, I would be at a loss to assign a value. Some wouldn't touch such a rifle. Others, it would not be very important for a rifle in that high of a condition.

April 15, 2013
12:53 pm
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Every search that I have done for the last 2 years has had the DOM date without asking for it. Maybe the seller did not want to know for his own reasons??
In his right-up he is saying that the rifle is from 1898. Without the s/n application date on his letter, maybe he thinks he will get away with that.
He has since added additional info and posted a photo of the Cody letter. ( This was not included on the first day of the posting) He seems to be trying to do the right thing after he got additional information on the rifle.
Like he said, the incorrect numbers are still being put out there and are still being used.

Paul

April 15, 2013
1:54 pm
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94shorties said
Every search that I have done for the last 2 years has had the DOM date without asking for it. Maybe the seller did not want to know for his own reasons??
In his right-up he is saying that the rifle is from 1898. Without the s/n application date on his letter, maybe he thinks he will get away with that.

Paul

The rifle in question belongs to me. I did not order the letter. it came with the rifle when I purchased it at the last Tulsa show. I used two sources to date the rifle. When Bert contacted me and explained the controversy on the manufacture dates, I changed the listing. I could have left it like it was and very few people would have known the difference. What else do you expect me to do? I am not trying to take advantage, mislead, or lie to anyone!!! Being criticized based on the facts, such as prices being too high is fine. Being accused of lying and misleading others is neither right nor fair.

ADDED

I received an email from Paul. He had not read the information I added to the original listing. I appreciated his emal. All is well!!

randy jones

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