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This is an 1889 made single shot, stamped 45 Ex. I bought this at an auction and have researched 45 Ex single shots online. It seems a lot of them have the shotgun butt and round barrel, like mine. Most 45 Ex single shots seen on ended auctions online seem to have British proofs and even India reseller addresses stamped on them. This one has 450 Ex stamped upside-down inline with the British proofs. It also has evidence of having had a tang sight on it. The chambering shows as a very large bottleneck case when viewed from the breech. Evidently, UMC head stamped the same cartridge as 45-125. It has a slow twist, judged by pushing a patch through, It make about 3/4 of a rotation in a standard length barrel. A 348 shell drops right in and can be wiggled around. The rim and head diameter of my gun are both larger than a 348.
Questions I have for the group are: Has anyone run across a similar gun, does anyone have a chamber diagram for the 45 Ex, does anyone have thoughts on the upside-down 450 Ex stamp, and can anyone decipher the meaning of those British proof marks?
Thanks!
Hello Jeff,
The Winchester 45 Express (45 EX.) cartridge is 3.25″ long, bottle-necked, and has a 1:36 rifling twist rate. It was factory loaded with a 300-gr bullet.
Yes, I have had my hands on more than a handful of them in the past 40-years. The total production was (631) manufactured through serial number 109999. Many of them were shipped to the UK, and the UK colonies in India. They were favored as “Tiger” rifles. The most common configuration was a 30-inch round No. 3 barrel, with a Shotgun butt with a smooth steel butt plate, and Express sights.
The upside down “.450” stamp is part of the British Proof marking, and denotes the bore size.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks, Bert! Mine does have a 30” round barrel. Also, this one has the three leaf express rear with a silver centerline on the leaves and a damaged express front. It also has an original seeming tang screw that’s too long plus wear marks on the upper tang showing it had a peep sight at one time.
Does anyone have a good picture of an express front sight from this period they could share? What’s left of mine is like a Lyman #3 bead sight, 5/8” wide base.
What style of peep sight would be likely original to this gun, assuming the express leaf sight is original also?
Jeff C. said
What style of peep sight would be likely original to this gun, assuming the express leaf sight is original also?
A Lyman #1 IF it was original to the gun, which you might be able to ascertain with a factory letter. But could be a British sight.
Considering the case-color remaining on the rcvr. & blue on the brl., this gun was never subjected to the rigors of a tropical climate. Stalking the “Monarch of the Glen” in the Scottish Highlands is likely the reason someone in Britain acquired it.
Not sure if this is correct for your gun or not- it’s pictured in the 1891 catalogue, also sorry it’s black and white
Jeff C. said
Thanks, Bert! Mine does have a 30” round barrel. Also, this one has the three leaf express rear with a silver centerline on the leaves and a damaged express front. It also has an original seeming tang screw that’s too long plus wear marks on the upper tang showing it had a peep sight at one time.Does anyone have a good picture of an express front sight from this period they could share? What’s left of mine is like a Lyman #3 bead sight, 5/8” wide base.
What style of peep sight would be likely original to this gun, assuming the express leaf sight is original also?
I do not (yet) have a good quality picture of a Winchester Express front sight as found on a Single Shot rifle.
The most common tang sight found on the early production Single Shot rifles was a Graduated Peep. In the early 1890s, the Lyman No. 1 or No. 2 tang sight became the more common sight, but a lot of rifles were still equipped with the Graduated Peep or the Mid Range vernier tang sight. Regardless of which sight you choose, they are not cheaply acquired today!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bill Hanzel said
That is the correct sight.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Does anyone happen to have graduated peep or vernier peep they would consider selling me? I understand they are expensive, I’ll gladly pay a solid price for a decent one.
When looking at these online it seems some are stamped on the spring 76, some 73 and some have no stamp. Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?
Jeff C. said
Does anyone happen to have graduated peep or vernier peep they would consider selling me? I understand they are expensive, I’ll gladly pay a solid price for a decent one.When looking at these online it seems some are stamped on the spring 76, some 73 and some have no stamp. Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?
If you Post what your looking for in the swap meet section, you might get more traffic there.
Jeff C. said Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?
No, that’s irrelevant. The graduated sights show up fairly often on ebay, if that’s what was originally mounted on the gun–which at this point you have no way of knowing. But before you spend money on a sight that may or may not be correct, it would be wise to obtain a factory letter.
Jeff C. said
When looking at these online it seems some are stamped on the spring 76, some 73 and some have no stamp. Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?
Yes it is, but some were marked “1885”.
With the serial number, I can determine if your rifle was factory equipped with a tang sight, and if so, which type it was.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jeff C. said
does anyone have a chamber diagram for the 45 Ex,
Not exactly! I do have a copy of an 1890s drawing with the dimensions of the cartridge casing/shell, ball and primer.
Just one catch! How is your French reading level and how well can you convert from the metric system?
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. Always thought these were neat drawings, even if they were in French.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
January 26, 2011
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Bert H. said
I do not (yet) have a good quality picture of a Winchester Express front sight as found on a Single Shot rifle
This one?
~Gary~
pdog72 said
Bert H. said
I do not (yet) have a good quality picture of a Winchester Express front sight as found on a Single Shot rifle
This one?
This is my damaged sight, looks the same, thanks! Is the pictured one silver or brass in color?
Not exactly! I do have a copy of an 1890s drawing with the dimensions of the cartridge casing/shell, ball and primer.
Just one catch! How is your French reading level and how well can you convert from the metric system?
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. Always thought these were neat drawings, even if they were in French.
Thanks! That comes out to .549 head diameter and .649 rim diameter based on the yellow diagram, which is consistent with my estimation. RCC actually makes the brass and Buffalo Arms has the dies so I’m in business regarding shooting this gun.
I am currently in discussions with RCC brass. I have been trying to get some brass from them for about 2 years. They are saying that what I want is not in stock at this time. They want me to place an order and wait at least 5 or 6 months. I’m not saying to not buy it from them but you need to make sure that they are in stock or that they are currently making brass.
Some slight variance between the French drawing measurements and RCC brass. Makes me wonder if RCC actually measured any period brass.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Thanks Maverick and Chuck! I can say for sure the brass dimensions Chuck shared are too small in rim (about .050) and head diameter about (about .020) based on my chamber (assuming my chamber is original). Those drawings also show a slightly thinner rim vs. the French drawings provided. I’ll contact RCC regarding the difference before I order. The French dimensions seem pretty much spot on.
Can someone measure an original case for head and rim diameter plus rim thickness?
This has been a very helpful and educational thread for me. I’ll confess my ignorance on this cartridge. Despite my fondness for Winchesters with big bores, I knew essentially nothing about this cartridge. In fact, for years I assumed the .45EX was a straight-walled cartridge. I sure was wrong about that. The only downside is now I want one even more!
January 26, 2011
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Jeff C. said
Mine was blued, with a brass bead, or at least it looked brass. It was on an 1886 ELW that lettered with express sight(s). I trade it off last year but recalled taking those shots since I’ve never seen that express front sight before.
Here’s a better pic I found ….
And here’s the rifle it was on
~Gary~
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