Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
450 Ex Highwall
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 89
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
February 8, 2022 - 5:28 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

4AC91383-B233-4E3B-8ABB-2C5DC38418B0.jpegImage Enlarger00895D8A-4440-437E-AC7A-DEE1CA898A1C.jpegImage Enlarger

This is an 1889 made single shot, stamped 45 Ex.  I bought this at an auction and have researched 45 Ex single shots online.  It seems a lot of them have the shotgun butt and round barrel, like mine.  Most 45 Ex single shots seen on ended auctions online seem to have British proofs and even India reseller addresses stamped on them.  This one has 450 Ex stamped upside-down inline with the British proofs.  It also has evidence of having had a tang sight on it.  The chambering shows as a very large bottleneck case when viewed from the breech. Evidently, UMC head stamped the same cartridge as 45-125.  It has a slow twist, judged by pushing a patch through, It make about 3/4 of a rotation in a standard length barrel.  A 348 shell drops right in and can be wiggled around.  The rim and head diameter of my gun are both larger than a 348.  

Questions I have for the group are:  Has anyone run across a similar gun, does anyone have a chamber diagram for the 45 Ex, does anyone have thoughts on the upside-down 450 Ex stamp, and can anyone decipher the meaning of those British proof marks?

Thanks!

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10640
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
2
February 8, 2022 - 6:00 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hello Jeff,

The Winchester 45 Express (45 EX.) cartridge is 3.25″ long, bottle-necked, and has a 1:36 rifling twist rate. It was factory loaded with a 300-gr bullet.

Yes, I have had my hands on more than a handful of them in the past 40-years.  The total production was (631) manufactured through serial number 109999.  Many of them were shipped to the UK, and the UK colonies in India.  They were favored as “Tiger” rifles.  The most common configuration was a 30-inch round No. 3 barrel, with a Shotgun butt with a smooth steel butt plate, and Express sights.

The upside down “.450” stamp is part of the British Proof marking, and denotes the bore size.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 89
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
February 8, 2022 - 8:25 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Thanks, Bert!  Mine does have a 30” round barrel. Also, this one has the three leaf express rear with a silver centerline on the leaves and a damaged express front.  It also has an original seeming tang screw that’s too long plus wear marks on the upper tang showing it had a peep sight at one time.

Does anyone have a good picture of an express front sight from this period they could share?  What’s left of mine is like a Lyman #3 bead sight, 5/8” wide base.

What style of peep sight would be likely original to this gun, assuming the express leaf sight is original also?

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
February 8, 2022 - 2:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said

What style of peep sight would be likely original to this gun, assuming the express leaf sight is original also?  

A Lyman #1 IF it was original to the gun, which you might be able to ascertain with a factory letter.  But could be a British sight.

Considering the case-color remaining on the rcvr. & blue on the brl., this gun was never subjected to the rigors of a tropical climate.  Stalking the “Monarch of the Glen” in the Scottish Highlands is likely the reason someone in Britain acquired it. 

Avatar
Ohio
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 383
Member Since:
May 26, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
February 9, 2022 - 2:20 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

image.jpgImage EnlargerNot sure if this is correct for your gun or not- it’s pictured in the 1891 catalogue, also sorry it’s black and white

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10640
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
6
February 9, 2022 - 2:24 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said
Thanks, Bert!  Mine does have a 30” round barrel. Also, this one has the three leaf express rear with a silver centerline on the leaves and a damaged express front.  It also has an original seeming tang screw that’s too long plus wear marks on the upper tang showing it had a peep sight at one time.

Does anyone have a good picture of an express front sight from this period they could share?  What’s left of mine is like a Lyman #3 bead sight, 5/8” wide base.

What style of peep sight would be likely original to this gun, assuming the express leaf sight is original also?  

I do not (yet) have a good quality picture of a Winchester Express front sight as found on a Single Shot rifle.

The most common tang sight found on the early production Single Shot rifles was a Graduated Peep.  In the early 1890s, the Lyman No. 1 or No. 2 tang sight became the more common sight, but a lot of rifles were still equipped with the Graduated Peep or the Mid Range vernier tang sight.  Regardless of which sight you choose, they are not cheaply acquired today!

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10640
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
7
February 9, 2022 - 2:25 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bill Hanzel said
image.jpgImage EnlargerNot sure if this is correct for your gun or not- it’s pictured in the 1891 catalogue, also sorry it’s black and white  

That is the correct sight.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 89
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
February 9, 2022 - 2:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Does anyone happen to have graduated peep or vernier peep they would consider selling me?  I understand they are expensive, I’ll gladly pay a solid price for a decent one.

When looking at these online it seems some are stamped on the spring 76, some 73 and some have no stamp.  Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?

Avatar
Ohio
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 383
Member Since:
May 26, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
February 9, 2022 - 3:30 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said
Does anyone happen to have graduated peep or vernier peep they would consider selling me?  I understand they are expensive, I’ll gladly pay a solid price for a decent one.

When looking at these online it seems some are stamped on the spring 76, some 73 and some have no stamp.  Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?  

If you Post what your looking for in the swap meet section, you might get more traffic there.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6168
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
February 9, 2022 - 3:40 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said   Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?  

No, that’s irrelevant.  The graduated sights show up fairly often on ebay, if that’s what was originally mounted on the gun–which at this point you have no way of knowing.  But before you spend money on a sight that may or may not be correct, it would be wise to obtain a factory letter. 

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10640
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
11
February 9, 2022 - 3:49 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said

When looking at these online it seems some are stamped on the spring 76, some 73 and some have no stamp.  Is it possible the single shot ones are the blank ones?  

Yes it is, but some were marked “1885”.

With the serial number, I can determine if your rifle was factory equipped with a tang sight, and if so, which type it was.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1543
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
February 9, 2022 - 4:10 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said
does anyone have a chamber diagram for the 45 Ex, 

Not exactly! I do have a copy of an 1890s drawing with the dimensions of the cartridge casing/shell, ball and primer.

45-Ex-Winch-WRA-45-Ex-1896-FRENCH-Metric.jpgImage Enlarger45-125-Ex-Winch-WRA-Ex-18-FRENCH-Metric.jpgImage Enlarger 

Just one catch! How is your French reading level and how well can you convert from the metric system?

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. Always thought these were neat drawings, even if they were in French.

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1267
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
February 9, 2022 - 5:51 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

I do not (yet) have a good quality picture of a Winchester Express front sight as found on a Single Shot rifle

DSCF5134.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5136.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5137.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5152.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5153.JPGImage Enlarger

This one?

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 89
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
February 9, 2022 - 7:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

pdog72 said

Bert H. said
I do not (yet) have a good quality picture of a Winchester Express front sight as found on a Single Shot rifle

DSCF5134.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5136.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5137.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5152.JPGImage EnlargerDSCF5153.JPGImage Enlarger

This one?  

EA0D3AD3-FC17-4A29-B02E-21D8ECB35ACD-1.jpegImage EnlargerC7495F23-D2F7-4809-B176-782AC8E5CF18.jpegImage Enlarger This is my damaged sight, looks the same, thanks!  Is the pictured one silver or brass in color?

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 89
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
February 9, 2022 - 7:22 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost


Not exactly! I do have a copy of an 1890s drawing with the dimensions of the cartridge casing/shell, ball and primer.

45-Ex-Winch-WRA-45-Ex-1896-FRENCH-Metric.jpgImage Enlarger45-125-Ex-Winch-WRA-Ex-18-FRENCH-Metric.jpgImage Enlarger 

Just one catch! How is your French reading level and how well can you convert from the metric system?

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. Always thought these were neat drawings, even if they were in French.  

Thanks!  That comes out to .549 head diameter and .649 rim diameter based on the yellow diagram, which is consistent with my estimation.  RCC actually makes the brass and Buffalo Arms has the dies so I’m in business regarding shooting this gun.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4528
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
February 9, 2022 - 6:36 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I am currently in discussions with RCC brass.  I have been trying to get some brass from them for about 2 years.  They are saying that what I want is not in stock at this time.  They want me to place an order and wait at least 5 or 6 months.  I’m not saying to not buy it from them but you need to make sure that they are in stock or that they are currently making brass.

 

Win-45-125-Specs.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1543
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
February 9, 2022 - 6:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Some slight variance between the French drawing measurements and RCC brass. Makes me wonder if RCC actually measured any period brass.

Sincerely,

Maverick 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 89
Member Since:
February 8, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
February 9, 2022 - 9:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Thanks Maverick and Chuck!  I can say for sure the brass dimensions Chuck shared are too small in rim (about .050) and head diameter about (about .020) based on my chamber (assuming my chamber is original).  Those drawings also show a slightly thinner rim vs. the French drawings provided.  I’ll contact RCC regarding the difference before I order.  The French dimensions seem pretty much spot on.

Can someone measure an original case for head and rim diameter plus rim thickness?

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
February 9, 2022 - 11:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

This has been a very helpful and educational thread for me.  I’ll confess my ignorance on this cartridge.  Despite my fondness for Winchesters with big bores, I knew essentially nothing about this cartridge.  In fact, for years I assumed the .45EX was a straight-walled cartridge.  I sure was wrong about that.  The only downside is now I want one even more!

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1267
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
February 10, 2022 - 2:01 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Jeff C. said

EA0D3AD3-FC17-4A29-B02E-21D8ECB35ACD-1.jpegImage EnlargerC7495F23-D2F7-4809-B176-782AC8E5CF18.jpegImage Enlarger This is my damaged sight, looks the same, thanks!  Is the pictured one silver or brass in color?  

Mine was blued, with a brass bead, or at least it looked brass. It was on an 1886 ELW that lettered with express sight(s). I trade it off last year but recalled taking those shots since I’ve never seen that express front sight before. 

Here’s a better pic I found ….

DSCF5151.JPGImage Enlarger

And here’s the rifle it was on

DSCF5144.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6168
TXGunNut: 4889
Chuck: 4528
1873man: 4269
steve004: 4108
Big Larry: 2297
twobit: 2284
TR: 1698
mrcvs: 1672
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12526
Posts: 108816

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1731
Members: 8737
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation