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I have ser#190190 a 20″ short rifle with a 9 3/8 fore end and ser#137757 a 22″ short rifle with the 9 3/8 fore end. And yes they are factory. The top one ser#497739 is 20″ s.r.c. with a double set trigger and s.g.b.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
cjs57 said
“If a factory 26-inch barrel was shortened to 20-inchs, the barrel contour would not look correct. Additionally, the factory original 20-inch rife barrels had their own unique contour (muzzle diameter) in comparison to a cut don 26-inch barrel.”Bert, Please publish the factory original Muzzle diameter for a 22″ and 24″ barrels so we can check our rifles.
Your request is complicated by the fact there are 22 & 24 inch Extra Light Weight barrels, and 22 & 24 inch Short rifle barrels.
Gary and Don are better sources for the information you seek.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 26, 2011
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Bert H. said
cjs57 said
“If a factory 26-inch barrel was shortened to 20-inchs, the barrel contour would not look correct. Additionally, the factory original 20-inch rife barrels had their own unique contour (muzzle diameter) in comparison to a cut don 26-inch barrel.”
Bert, Please publish the factory original Muzzle diameter for a 22″ and 24″ barrels so we can check our rifles.
Your request is complicated by the fact there are 22 & 24 inch Extra Light Weight barrels, and 22 & 24 inch Short rifle barrels.
Gary and Don are better sources for the information you seek.
cjs57 – Yes, I have some of this information, but I need to measure a few more of them and organize my file a bit. Give me a little time to get it all compiled and I’ll post what I have on this subject.
~Gary~
January 26, 2011
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On the subject of muzzle diameters as they relate to ’94 short rifles, see below. For comparison, I have 26″ standard length and carbines shown as well.
Not necessarily concrete, but just what I’ve taken time to measure from my collection. Some groups just have a few examples, others 1/2 dozen or better. I did not include standard 1/2 octagon barrels as they are obviously lighter (more like .680). For the ELWs, I did leave the 1/2 OB rifles in the average as they measure out the same.
Of note, some of these rifles are in the letterable range, others not, but I believe they are all factory original configurations, or I would not still own them.
Second, there are (4) “long wood” specimens in the 22″ Std. section (three that letter). They do not measure out any heavier than the others in that category. Knowing that, it’s my opinion that “long wood” does not necessarily indicate a factory cut down. I still believe that may have happened on occasion, I just don’t own any that have long wood and a noticeably heavier muzzle. A 26″ std. weight barrel cut down to 20″ would be closer to .750. Although it doesn’t seem like that much difference, its usually noticeable without even measuring it.
| Std. Wt. 26″ Avg | Std. Wt. 24″ Avg | Std. Wt. 22″ Avg | Std. Wt. 20″ Avg |
| 0.695 | 0.702 | 0.714 | 0.729 |
| ELW Wt. 24″ Avg | ELW Wt. 22″ Avg |
| 0.564 | 0.573 |
| Carb. |
| 0.602 |
~Gary~
March 1, 2011
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THREEDFLYER said
Here is my 1907 production 1894 Short Rifle with 20″ barrel, it’s a take-down model with octagon barrel chambered in .32-40 and had the long forend woodLetter states everything EXCEPT the barrel length, so most probably did not leave the factory with the 20″ barrel, but cannot be 100% sure.
Wanted to update this even though it’s an old thread…..
The original document I received was a basic search on this Model 1894 and not an actual factory letter and recently the fellow that I purchased this from found the factory letter that he had ordered up back in 2004 and the letter does indeed list this as a “Short Rifle” that shipped from Winchester on March 5th, 1907. I am not sure why the “Search” document which was dated 2018 negleted to mention “Short Rifle” or anything regarding the barrel????
Seems like a very important couple of words to ommit from such a request…..
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
THREEDFLYER said
THREEDFLYER said
Here is my 1907 production 1894 Short Rifle with 20″ barrel, it’s a take-down model with octagon barrel chambered in .32-40 and had the long forend wood
Letter states everything EXCEPT the barrel length, so most probably did not leave the factory with the 20″ barrel, but cannot be 100% sure.
Wanted to update this even though it’s an old thread…..
The original document I received was a basic search on this Model 1894 and not an actual factory letter and recently the fellow that I purchased this from found the factory letter that he had ordered up back in 2004 and the letter does indeed list this as a “Short Rifle” that shipped from Winchester on March 5th, 1907. I am not sure why the “Search” document which was dated 2018 negleted to mention “Short Rifle” or anything regarding the barrel????
Seems like a very important couple of words to omit from such a request…..
The basic search, as well as the factory letter request, sometimes omits important information. A double check of that can resolve that problem.
I received a factory letter once that left out the fact a Model 1886 rifle was a takedown example. An email or call resulted in a corrected letter.
THREEDFLYER said
THREEDFLYER said
Here is my 1907 production 1894 Short Rifle with 20″ barrel, it’s a take-down model with octagon barrel chambered in .32-40 and had the long forend wood
Letter states everything EXCEPT the barrel length, so most probably did not leave the factory with the 20″ barrel, but cannot be 100% sure.
Wanted to update this even though it’s an old thread…..
The original document I received was a basic search on this Model 1894 and not an actual factory letter and recently the fellow that I purchased this from found the factory letter that he had ordered up back in 2004 and the letter does indeed list this as a “Short Rifle” that shipped from Winchester on March 5th, 1907. I am not sure why the “Search” document which was dated 2018 negleted to mention “Short Rifle” or anything regarding the barrel????
Seems like a very important couple of words to ommit from such a request…..
Hi Tom,
Can you post a photo of the factory letter.
Thanks
Rick C
March 1, 2011
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mrcvs said
THREEDFLYER said
THREEDFLYER said
Here is my 1907 production 1894 Short Rifle with 20″ barrel, it’s a take-down model with octagon barrel chambered in .32-40 and had the long forend wood
Letter states everything EXCEPT the barrel length, so most probably did not leave the factory with the 20″ barrel, but cannot be 100% sure.
Wanted to update this even though it’s an old thread…..
The original document I received was a basic search on this Model 1894 and not an actual factory letter and recently the fellow that I purchased this from found the factory letter that he had ordered up back in 2004 and the letter does indeed list this as a “Short Rifle” that shipped from Winchester on March 5th, 1907. I am not sure why the “Search” document which was dated 2018 negleted to mention “Short Rifle” or anything regarding the barrel????
Seems like a very important couple of words to omit from such a request…..
The basic search, as well as the factory letter request, sometimes omits important information. A double check of that can resolve that problem.
I received a factory letter once that left out the fact a Model 1886 rifle was a takedown example. An email or call resulted in a corrected letter.
Thanks Ian, I have not ordered up many Winchester letters, but I do have several from S&W and a couple from Colt.
The fact that the SEARCH document neglected to state “SHORT RIFLE” seems like a big deal……especially if a potential buyer could not confirm the rifle was indeed a “SHORT RIFLE”
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
Tom,
I would like to see both the Factory letter and the research sheet.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 1, 2011
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Bert H. said
Tom,I would like to see both the Factory letter and the research sheet.
Bert
Bert,
I sent them to you a short time ago via email…..it was an email that I had on file…..win1885@xxxx
Tom
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
Tom,
Received, and answer sent.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 26, 2011
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Tony. R said
Would this be regarded as a short rifle.
For the criteria of my survey, yes. Basically, anything shorter than standard is fair game. That said, I already have your rifle from some time ago. Its listed just as your letter shows. Thanks Tony.
~Gary~
I haven’t seen a letter with the term short rifle. I’ve only owned two & they showed barrel length not the description “short rifle”. Also, all my letters have more of a gap below the first paragraph & rifle build data. Maybe someone else can advise.
Rick C
RickC said
I haven’t seen a letter with the term short rifle. I’ve only owned two & they showed barrel length not the description “short rifle”. Also, all my letters have more of a gap below the first paragraph & rifle build data. Maybe someone else can advise.
I too have not (yet) encountered a ledger record entry with the “Short Rifle” notation, and like you, I am a bit suspicious of the spacing of the line with “Short Rifle” entered on the CFM letter. I have copies of nearly (300) Cody factory letters for the Model 1894 (several were signed by Waddy Colvert), and none of them look like the letter that Tom posted a picture of. I did recommend to Tom to have it rechecked by the CFM records office. While I believe that his Short Rifle is legitimate, I am not convinced that the factory letter for (dated 2004) is 100% original.
Furthermore, a 20″ barrel was not a cataloged or listed “standard” length for a Short Rifle. There were nearly as many of them manufactured with a 22″ barrel, and a very substantial number manufactured with a 24″ barrel. I have not found anything published by Winchester that indicated a standard length for a special order “Short” rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 1, 2011
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Here are photos of the original envelope that the letter I have came….The post date on the envlope is Dec, 2004 but the letter is dated June 2004…..But I believe the fellow Jerry Sargent had obtained several letters from Cody and most likely the letters and envelopes were mixed up.
If there is a specific person I should reach out to at Cody please let me know?? I am not a member.
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
Tom,
Contact Jessica Bennett at the CFM records office.
This is a Factory letter for a nearly identical Short rifle, completed in the same year (2004) by Waddy Colvert. Take note of the fact it does not state “Short Rifle”, and the first line of the rifle’s description has a space above it.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Looking at the letter further it would not look correct if an added notation on the barrel length or the notation “short rifle” was below the received and shipped dates, and the only place to add something later would be above the takedown notation where a space always is from the letters I’ve seen.
I also believe short rifle is a collector term and not something stated in the letters. Jmo.
Rick C
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