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March 31, 2009
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Blue Ridge Parson said
Now this is quite educational. Knowing absolutely nothing about the express rounds, the cutaway shown above would lead me to conclude that the copper tubing acts as a sort of hollow point round, promoting faster expansion, and also would reduce the weight of the bullet, thus giving faster speed and flatter trajectory. Was that the express intent (pun intended) of Winchester, or was something else at play.
BRP
Sometimes an express round is just a lighter bullet, like the 45-90. For the ones that have the tube I believe it was for expansion. There are some rounds that have just a hole for the expansion. I believe these were called a Gould. Not sure what you’d call the 45-82? It is 45-90 length but has a 400 grain bullet.
November 7, 2015
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Blue Ridge Parson said
Now this is quite educational. Knowing absolutely nothing about the express rounds, the cutaway shown above would lead me to conclude that the copper tubing acts as a sort of hollow point round, promoting faster expansion, and also would reduce the weight of the bullet, thus giving faster speed and flatter trajectory. Was that the express intent (pun intended) of Winchester, or was something else at play.
BRP
In theory the tube would shift the center of balance rearward and may allow the use of a lighter bullet in faster twist barrels since the formula for optimal twist rate is based on bullet length, not weight. I don’t know about the effect on expansion but with all the noise about the nylon bullet tips lately I suspect expansion was a goal as these were hunting rounds. It seems today’s whiz kids are up on their history. That’s encouraging!
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Faster twist stabilizes heavier bullets. Yes with the same bullet shape the heavier ones can be longer. But depending on the type of ogive some lighter ones can have a longer OAL. The hunting bullets with plastic tips have ribs inside to lock the jacket to the core for expansion. Target bullets with the same tips do not lock to the core. I shoot some 155 grain bullets that are longer than the 168’s but they both stabilize with the same twist.
April 15, 2005
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Maverick said
Bert H. said
40 EX. U.M.C. – flat copper tube, no “X” marking
40 EX. W.R.A.Co. – rounded copper tube no “X” marking (just like the picture Chuck posted of the 40-75 WRCAo. ctg.)
45 EX. U.M.C. – flat copper tub, no “X” marking)
45 EX. W.R.A.Co. – flat copper tube “X’ marked
50-95 W.C.F. W.R.A.Co. – flat copper tube “X” marked
Bert,
What is the approx. diameter of the copper tube on the .40 Cal Winchester Cartridge? Is it the same for the UMC counterpart?
What does the diameter of your 45 WRACo copper tube measure? Is it the same for the UMC counterpart?
My research notes have the 45 cal. tube to have a diameter of .225″. I thought that they used the same size tubes for all the various express calibers. Is there a difference in size between the 45 and 50?
Sincerely,
Maverick
The 40 EX (40-110) cartridges have a .150″ diameter copper pellet (both the WRACo and UMC). The 45 EX cartridges have a .225″ diameter copper pellet/tube, as do the 50-95 WCF bullets.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
September 19, 2014
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Chuck, BRP, etc. I called several times yesterday and didn’t get any answer. About bet he has gone to visit his daughter and her family in TX. By the time he returns, and I get an answer, I will have lost this thread. But I have hope I won’t. If I was a betting man, I would guess the “express” tube functioned to keep the hollow point from mashing in as the cartridges were handled, etc. I think the lead bullets back then were pretty soft. Possibly the tube also helped initiate expansion some like our current tipped bullets, but think the protection of the cavity and the opening maybe more important. Just my take as I’ve not read anywhere on this. Or that I recall at least. Tim
March 31, 2009
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tim tomlinson said
Chuck, BRP, etc. I called several times yesterday and didn’t get any answer. About bet he has gone to visit his daughter and her family in TX. By the time he returns, and I get an answer, I will have lost this thread. But I have hope I won’t. If I was a betting man, I would guess the “express” tube functioned to keep the hollow point from mashing in as the cartridges were handled, etc. I think the lead bullets back then were pretty soft. Possibly the tube also helped initiate expansion some like our current tipped bullets, but think the protection of the cavity and the opening maybe more important. Just my take as I’ve not read anywhere on this. Or that I recall at least. Tim
Tim, I’ll try to remember too. The copper tube was to aid in the expansion of the bullet on impact. Not sure if it worked any better than a hollow point.
March 31, 2009
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steve004 said
I’m not up to speed on .70-150 cartridges. Were some of the headstamped? If so, just manufacturer or caliber designation as well?
I can’t remember but there is one of the Winchester cartridge boards with one of these on the top corner.
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Blue Ridge Parson said
Now this is quite educational. Knowing absolutely nothing about the express rounds, the cutaway shown above would lead me to conclude that the copper tubing acts as a sort of hollow point round, promoting faster expansion, and also would reduce the weight of the bullet, thus giving faster speed and flatter trajectory. Was that the express intent (pun intended) of Winchester, or was something else at play.
BRP
In theory the tube would shift the center of balance rearward and may allow the use of a lighter bullet in faster twist barrels since the formula for optimal twist rate is based on bullet length, not weight. I don’t know about the effect on expansion but with all the noise about the nylon bullet tips lately I suspect expansion was a goal as these were hunting rounds. It seems today’s whiz kids are up on their history. That’s encouraging!
Mike
Here is the tool I use. There is some guesstimating that has to be done for some of our older bullets.
November 19, 2006
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This has been interesting and educational. It prompted me to open a box with some cartridges I have – that I haven’t looked at in (many years). Here’s a .45-85 I have:
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November 19, 2006
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Here’s a .40-70 I have. I’ve always thought it was the .40-70 WCF for the M1886 (and two M1895 .40-70 Marlines I had). Remind me what the S and H stand for:
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November 19, 2006
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This is my favorite .45-90 factory loading:
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November 19, 2006
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A .45-75. Again, with the S and H marking:
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November 19, 2006
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A pair of .50-110 Express. They both have the copper tube with the X The cartridges are marked identically but if they were in a full box, you could pick the headstamps out as not being precisely the same:
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November 19, 2006
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On the topic of .50-110, here’s one that’s a bit different:
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November 19, 2006
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On the topic of .50 calibers – here’s a group – .50-70 shot, .50-95 shot, .50-110 shot and .50-110 bulleted. They will all chamber in my Standard Arms .50 caliber “CAMP .50”. The only difference is the .50-70 won’t clear the ejection port as the rim is too wide.
This is a firearm that supposedly chambered a proprietary cartridge – both a “buck” version and a “ball” version. From what I can tell, not a single living human has actually seen one of these cartridges.
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April 15, 2005
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steve004 said
On the topic of .50-110, here’s one that’s a bit different:<a href="
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Steve,
That is a smokeless powder loaded Shot shell made specifically for the Single Shot rifle. I have a full box of 50-95 WCF shot shells that are nearly identical.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 19, 2006
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Bert H. said
steve004 said
On the topic of .50-110, here’s one that’s a bit different:
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Steve,
That is a smokeless powder loaded Shot shell made specifically for the Single Shot rifle. I have a full box of 50-95 WCF shot shells that are nearly identical.
Bert
Bert – that’s a cool box and cool cartridges. I vaguely seem to recall when it came up for sale? You haven’t owned it for a lot of years? If I’m right, I recall having some interest as I thought it would go well with my CAMP 50. Also, if I recall correctly, it wasn’t bargain priced.
April 15, 2005
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Steve,
I have owned that box for 18-years now. It was not cheap when I bought it from Walt Hallstein, and it is one of only two known complete boxes.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 19, 2006
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Bert H. said
Steve,I have owned that box for 18-years now. It was not cheap when I bought it from Walt Hallstein, and it is one of only two known complete boxes.
Bert
Bert – do you recall another partial box that came up for sale in more recent years? I don’t think it was an auction.
April 15, 2005
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steve004 said
Bert H. said
Steve,
I have owned that box for 18-years now. It was not cheap when I bought it from Walt Hallstein, and it is one of only two known complete boxes.
Bert
Bert – do you recall another partial box that came up for sale in more recent years? I don’t think it was an auction.
I do not, but I haven’t exactly been looking for more of them. It took me almost 3-years to track down the identical condition & marked singles to fill the box I acquired. The average cost per cartridge was $90.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
