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The pix of the areas under the dust cover and rail are most interesting. A letter showing the date into the warehouse AND out of the warehouse will be most intriguing I am sure. I would guess the time out is around the Oct 1878 time frame and about bet there will be no mention of a “lid”, but hope so. I would guess without further information that Winchester did the milling operations to attach the rail and dust cover. Nice rifle. The ones I have I have for a reason or reasons, but among them are their letters and what info can be inferred. Tim
Yearout says on pg 145 … that the Winchester Catalog dated May 1, 1878 listed “Mortise cover slide, Model 1876- price $1.00”
I would suspect they were doing this modification prior to listing the lid as an option or as a part.
SN 1855 was shipped May 8, 1878… after the part was listed as an “Extra” on May 1st.
It is conceivable that my Carbine left Winchester with this lid modification. The general condition of the top of the frame on my gun further supports this.
-Mike
Also… as I said in post 11…
To further add to the mystery…Madis (1985 edition) in the section on 1876’s says on page 215 that dust covers could be factory ordered after SN 1600. On page 220 Madis pictures a Carbine that he says shipped on May 8, 1878 (same date as my #1855) … WITH the dust cover attached.
These observations and/or details in the Madis study of the Model 1876 would also support the possibility of my Carbine – SN 1855 … being shipped with the lid modification done by Winchester.
Most unfortunate that the records for SN 1855 are void of any mention of a dust cover or lid… but as has been discussed… ommisions and errors have been found in the records. Could this be such a case?
-Mike
TR said
Darrin,I have found these three books very helpful in my attempt to understand the 1876 Model.
The Winchester model 1876 Centennial Rifle by Herbert Houze
T/R
T/R,
I located this book so far, however it is priced at $180 w/out a dust cover. I’m thinking for that price I may be satisfied asking this forum for answers to any questions I might have about the “centennial”.
Darrin
Darrin Smith said
TR said
Darrin,
I have found these three books very helpful in my attempt to understand the 1876 Model.
The Winchester model 1876 Centennial Rifle by Herbert Houze
T/R
T/R,
I located this book so far, however it is priced at $180 w/out a dust cover. I’m thinking for that price I may be satisfied asking this forum for answers to any questions I might have about the “centennial”.
Darrin
I understand, but what does it cost to by a ringer. The information in the books gives you a complete and total picture of the subject. Knowledge comes from a good well researched book. All my books are well worn because I forget. T/R
November 7, 2015
Offline
Books may seem expensive until they help you avoid a mistake or identify a sleeper, Darrin. They also tend to answer questions I don’t know enough to ask. Several of my books have earned their keep by helping me make good decisions, the rest are great entertainment.
Mike
I lost track that the rifle in question had already had its critical dates provided. Too far between I guess. There is no doubt in my mind it IS originally a first model open top that was subsequently fitted with a lid. NOW WHO and WHEN is the curiosity question. I don’t do well with downloading photos and manipulating them like some but what I see looks like either factory milling or milling by a professional of some sort. For now, guess that will have to do. In my estimation it is an interesting rifle for sure. Tim
On page 100 in the Herbert Houze book on the Model 1876 (referenced by T/R):
“The first major change to be made in the Model 1876’s general design took place in early 1878 when it was decided that the arm should be equipped with a mortise cover.”
On page 102 in Houze:
” …. work began on retrofitting existing machinery to accept tools and fixtures associated with the new mortise cover on May 3, 1878. Entries in the ledger also indicate that covers were initially supplied on an as-needed or as- ordered basis by outside contractors until production began within the factory.”
The timing of all of this “pre-production lid work” relative to my May 8, 1878 shipped Carbine (#1855), which also happens to have been fitted with a dust cover at one point in it’s very early life, could be indicative of it being part of a “beta test” group of early guns that were retrofitted ahead of full production. Mfg processes and product design – for full scale production is usually refined during this stage of development.
The “grey” lid on my gun could also be the result of pre-production process and finish issues. BTW. This lid is a very robust piece of machined metal … the long narrow milled slot is most impressive.
-Mike
86Win –
It looks like your modifications to the frame of your ’76 are about the same as on mine. Are you able to post a photo of your lid or dust cover?
-Mike
Is 3267 blued in the screw holes or the cut for the “lid” stop? Or are they bright? Or are they too patinated to tell? Looks to me the latter may be the case but as I’ve said before I can’t manipulate photos to really tell. Mike’s seem to be bright metal in each location as if the milling was after the rifle was finished. Just my guessing at this point, much like everyone else. I am ASSUMING those rifles planned to be fitted for a “lid” would have had the milling and drilling done prior to bluing. Tim
Old 3267 is so patinated that I really can’t tell. In fact this old girl almost looks like cast iron turned brown (obviously isn’t). Sorry I can’t be more helpful! Don
long spur hollow said
One more picture of the top of frame with an LED light used for better blue and patina Mike, observation. I like what I see under the guide rail.– Mike
Mike,
I also like what I see under the rail. I think it’s Winchester work, the fact that they didn’t record it in the records does not surprise me. This was a time period in the 1876 production the lid was or was not installed. The guns were standard with a lid or without. So why record it. T/R
Yesterday I examined the 76 again and based on the color of the receiver and the brightness of the rail I think it was added later. As this rifle had the set trigger removed, possibly the rail was added at that time.
86Win said
Yesterday I examined the 76 again and based on the color of the receiver and the brightness of the rail I think it was added later. As this rifle had the set trigger removed, possibly the rail was added at that time.
Even though my ’76 frame/receiver has more condition than yours … I feel the same about my rail. I am not certain if it is related to the type of steel used for the rail … or the blue used on it – but my rail certainly looks “pretty crisp” as well. I still feel that it has been there a long long time … perhaps since delivery from factory.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Books may seem expensive until they help you avoid a mistake or identify a sleeper, Darrin. They also tend to answer questions I don’t know enough to ask. Several of my books have earned their keep by helping me make good decisions, the rest are great entertainment.
Mike
BTW Mike, I did order and receive Houze’s book and it does have the dust cover brand new and all intact. Thanks for urging me to order, no regrets.
Darrin
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