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Don, For further depth of an answer, I listed by serial number my 5000 series open top in the first pages of this discussion, maybe half way down the entries. Also I’ve seen a couple of others in the 5000 numbers cross the block at RIA I think. Not alone in that, either. Robert Ray Preston commented to me the year I bought mine he had seen several of that serial number series. Also, pay attention to the month and year that represents. Tim
I have a model 1876, sn 1286, in 45-75 cal with a dust cover that looks to be factory installed. I have a Cody factory letter coming soon. It will be interesting to see the configuration. So, with the s/n saying it’s a first model, does the addition of the dust cover make it a second model as far as collector value? The rifle also comes with the set trigger, ladder rear sight, 28 inch octagon barrel, and 4 piece cleaning rod in the butt.
Can’t really answer your question but sounds like a nice gun. My guess is if the letter says with lid/cover it is still a first model with the lid added. If it doesn’t letter with the lid I really have no guess what to call it.
Post some pictures to a host website.
JJ, Bert with his price guide likely would have a better answer as to the market. My take though, is it likely has the standardized butt plate and hammer, etc rather than the unique ones that only the very earliest ones had, so no premium there. Its value would depend on its condition more than anything and the potential buyer’s desires considering the addition of a “lid” to a first model rifle, with a set trigger adding some interest. Tim
Thanks Tim. one other thing I noticed with long spur hollow’s s/n 912 open top is that the bolt doesn’t have the bigger tab on the extractor that would engage the dust cover as the bolt moves aft. so, with a different bolt configuration needed to retract the dust cover, I would think that the factory would have to install the bolt along with the dust cover. My s/n 1286 has that bolt configuration. My low s/n makes me wonder if it was a prototype for the dust cover installation.
86Win said
Trying to determine if any open-top (no dust cover or rail ) 76 Winchesters was produced after my 1876 SN 3267. Any out there? Don
Don, there are serial numbers in the low 6000’s that are still open tops. The highest open top serial number I see in the current survey is 6142 but there may be others.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Would there be a difference in bolt configuration for the lidded versus the open top? Just wondering if bolt had to be replaced or altered. Don
The bolt has the extractor different when equipped with a dust cover/lid with an extension upwards to catch the dust cover. Now, if Winchester was changing a first, open top, to accommodate a lid, did they change the bolt assembly for ease of change, or did they have the extractor changed out? I’ve no idea on that account. Tim. PS. in my humble opinion, we have open top, first models. Then there are open top, first models that have had a lid added. Then there are those produced as fully second models to begin with (and subsequently third models). Desirability varies with the collector and what he/she needs to show and tell a story. I can’t vouch for those trying to buy and sell for profit. As TR and others point out, its easier to sell a rifle that you don’t have to have a story to explain some features.
Thank you Tim for your expertise. I have spent alot of time trying to figure out this 1876. I can’t wait for the factory letter to get here. (should be soon) Above you mentioned the standardized butt plate. Is that the one that does not have the cleaning kit compartment?.
James, the butt plate was standardized to a slightly smaller size. The trap for the cleaning rods continued. Earliest rifles had an oversize hammer and a bigger butt plate. Plus the earliest changed from no trigger block to one that had a projection off the finger lever that went into a hole in the lower tang, then to a smooth finger lever that depressed a stud coming out of the lower tang. Tim PS. What I really lack is more details of market values!
Tim, I have an 1873 which has a keyhole drilled through the finger lever. It is located at top of finger lever just behind the trigger. I thought maybe it was for an attachment to trip the trigger like the Rifleman in cowboy action shooting. The right-hand side is round and the left-hand side is a key-hole. Do you have a reference where I could see what you are describing? Don
Don, About the best that comes to mind at present is my article on the 1868 Musket which led to the models 1873 and 1876. It used the trigger block system with a pin on the finger lever entering the hole in the bottom tang to depress a spring and lever to remove the trigger block. It is pictured in some detail. That provided the version used on early 1876’s after they first used NO trigger block safety. The best I have at the moment is the picture on page 47 of the Fall edition. Look at the lever and you will see a small pin between the lever and tang just back of the trigger. That pin is attached to the lever. Final form on the 1873’s when they got the trigger block safety and the 1876’s when it settled down had the pin protrude from the tang and pushed by the lever. Any keyhole is something I am unfamiliar with at this time. If anyone knows of a normal use for a keyhole as I am thinking you have described, it would be 1873 Man. Interesting how these topics take off in unforecast directions! Tim PS. Pix are invaluable. I hate taking and then trying to post them!
Don, I have a bit more that may help illustrate the trigger block safety as earlier engineered/designed by Luke Wheelock. IF you have Herb Houze’s book “The Winchester Model 1876 “Centennial” Rifle”, look at page 55. The pictures are of a modified de Suzanne carbine from Apr/May 1875. The lower tang is not included, but it does show the pin on the finger lever that would go into the hole in the lower tang to then depress the trigger block safety. This also is the system used on my Model 1868 musket, serial 18, and Model 1876 serial number 544. As yet I can not tell you when this feature changed, nor am I aware of it being discussed elsewhere. I have not gone back and skimmed all of my references, however. Give me some time and I will see where this branch leads to. Tim
Good morning Tim,
I thought you might like to see what I am talking about. Even though this thread is about 76s I wonder if this has anything to do with 73s and 76s. This rifle is SN 173020A (1885). You will notice that the hole is directly under the trigger block pin. It’s like 2 different vintage parts.
Enlightenment will be appreciated. Don
Don, MOST INTERESTNG! Surely hope Bob (AKA 1873 Man) reads and chimes in! I am not an engineer nor a machinist and have absolutely no idea of any benefit of the hole. You also kind of shame me. I will see if I can take photos of my 1868 musket and the early 1876 to show their version of a trigger block safety. It will be by cell phone, and last time I tried I had issues with the pic being too big to download here. Tim
Tim, I wrestled with the photos for close to an hour. I finally somehow got them loaded on my desktop. Then I dragged from desktop to the upload section.
It seems like every time a new windows version is installed my photos program changes. I’m too old of dog to handle new tricks. Don
Don, I too have issues finding and including my photos. Also an old dog. Here, I hope, is the 1868 musket with the pin going into the lower tang. Note the pin is tapered. It is a Luke Wheelock design. Tim
Don and others, here is the early model 1876 sn 455 system as produced to unlock the trigger block safety. Note the pin is shorter and appears straight compared to the longer, tapered pin on the lever of the model 1868 prototype musket. While a bit out of focus, the contact pin inside the lower tang shows in the hole and is bright from use. Hope this helps explain the system, as used. But does nothing to explain the key hole milled sideways through Don’s model 1873 finger lever. Tim Well, its coming up as too large and won’t down load. Crap! Also don’t know nor want to know how to change it!
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