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March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
I loaded the 38 EX rounds with 23 grains of 4198. I am testing the filler quantity to see if I get more pressure with more filler, or not. I’m hoping that a small amount of filler that fits tightly against the power will work. These rounds can finally be chronographed. I want to get somewhere between 1400 and 1500 fps.
I suspect that you will find that 23 grains is going to be a very light load and well short of 1,400 fps. I load 38-55 cartridges with 22 grains of IMR 4198 under a 255 grain bullet, and it produces 1,500 fps in my high-wall 30″ barrel.
Bert
Well, you know me, I like to start low and work up. Especially when using fillers. I am using around 220 grain bullets. My radial arm saw method is not exactly accurate. Nor are the bullets. They come out the same length but not the same weight.
I ordered 2 bullet sizing bushings from Lee Precision. .378″ and .379″. 2 sizers with punches, $36 delivered.
March 31, 2009
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Bert/Mike, I need a babysitter.
I have been shooting this cartridge for some time now and I have not been able to chronograph any of the shots. I thought it was all the black powder smoke causing the issue. So yesterday I shot my first smokeless loads and still no luck with the chronograph. When changing to another rifle I had an epiphany. Stupid me had forgotten that this caliber is so slow I have to set the chronograph to the pistol setting and I still had it on the rifle setting.
The cartridges fired with no problems. Only 1 of the 6 goes into the chamber easily. I got a notice from Lee that the bullet sizing bushings have shipped. I did spend some time talking to my friend about the issue. Not only is he an expert at shooting black powder rifles he is a retired machinist. He says paper patching could work on a smaller diameter bullet and it is easy once you learn how to properly wrap the bullet. The biggest issue is finding the proper paper. On reaming the cases he says that it will work also but he recommends using a lathe to turn the tip of the reamer to the inside diameter of the case necks to keep things aligned while reaming. This would probably require me to buy some pin gauges to measure the inside ID of the case so I could buy the proper reamer to stay within a .001″ tolerance. I do have a ball micrometer but I am not very proficient with its usage.
Besides a pin gauge with a beveled edge can make a really nice case neck expander. It is hard to find expander mandrels over about 33 Cal. Using the proper diameter pin gauge can eliminate the need for crimping. Which helps with accuracy. I have one already that I use for my 45 cal cases. Because there is so much bullet in the neck that causes a lot of friction you really don’t have to squeeze it as much as some think to keep the bullet seated during firing in a magazine rifle. I start my testing with an expander mandrel or pin gauge .003″ smaller than the diameter of the bullet. If this is not enough go to one that is .002″ smaller than the bullet. You can get pin gauges in increments of .0005″.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert/Mike, I need a babysitter.
I have been shooting this cartridge for some time now and I have not been able to chronograph any of the shots. I thought it was all the black powder smoke causing the issue. So yesterday I shot my first smokeless loads and still no luck with the chronograph. When changing to another rifle I had an epiphany. Stupid me had forgotten that this caliber is so slow I have to set the chronograph to the pistol setting and I still had it on the rifle setting.
The cartridges fired with no problems. Only 1 of the 6 goes into the chamber easily. I got a notice from Lee that the bullet sizing bushings have shipped. I did spend some time talking to my friend about the issue. Not only is he an expert at shooting black powder rifles he is a retired machinist. He says paper patching could work on a smaller diameter bullet and it is easy once you learn how to properly wrap the bullet. The biggest issue is finding the proper paper. On reaming the cases he says that it will work also but he recommends turning the tip of the reamer to the inside diameter of the case necks to keep things aligned while reaming.
So, now that you have had your epiphany, when are you going to give it another try?
Are the other 5 cases sticky on extraction?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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I hope to shoot next Tuesday. All the cases extract and have from the start. But some are a bit sticky.
This range is 60 miles away and going out there in the morning traffic it takes me 1 1/2 hours to get there. I go the long way so I don’t have to go through LA. I don’t like going into LA County let alone the City. If it were easier I’d go more often. But never on a weekend or afternoon when the AR crazy’s come out.
I was lucky this week. We were supposed to get winds over 40 mph. As it turned out there wasn’t any wind but it was too hot. I wore a long sleeved shirt and brought a jacket. There is always a coat in my truck too. I sometimes have to wear the coat over my shirt and jacket. It was 71 in the shade. I had planned on it being in the 60’s so my other rifle’s loads were possibly too hot. I shoot from the 50’s to the low 100’s and keep track of the temp all year long. I guesstimate the temp and load powder accordingly. From cold to hot it can vary as much as .4 grains to stay in my speed node where the barrel is happy.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
I’m afraid I’m more of an instigator or enabler than babysitter so there are likely better prospects for the job. My recent adventures in the room where the magic happens as well as a range close by probably indicate the need for adult supervision in my case as well. I did finally dig out my Labradar yesterday to remove the dead batteries and may even use it to help with my projects. I’ll remember your setting tip as it was last used for velocities more associated with handguns these days. It’s been too windy to keep a rifle on the bench today let alone shoot a group so I’ve been reading and piddling.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Chuck-
I’m afraid I’m more of an instigator or enabler than babysitter so there are likely better prospects for the job. so I’ve been reading and piddling.
Mike
Hopefully not down your leg.
March 31, 2009
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I received the bullet sizers from Lee Precision. I tested the .379″ and the bullets slide right into the case. I then figured a way to pinch the end of the case so the bullet would stay put. The big test was to load the case with a seated bullet into the chamber. It took a slight push to get it to chamber. I will size more bullets and shoot the 6 rounds on Tuesday.
I’m going to change the chronograph to pistol right after I finish this post.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
I received the bullet sizers from Lee Precision. I tested the .379″ and the bullets slide right into the case. I then figured a way to pinch the end of the case so the bullet would stay put. The big test was to load the case with a seated bullet into the chamber. It took a slight push to get it to chamber. I will size more bullets and shoot the 6 rounds on Tuesday.
I’m going to change the chronograph to pistol right after I finish this post.
Sounds like you have the bullet diameter issue worked out. Now to see what your velocity looks like.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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I’m going to use the powder charge that Frank Barnes shows. 23 grs. of 4198. He is usually close and safe. I’ll use a small piece of dense cotton to hold the powder next to the primer. I want to see what happens with the 75% void left in the case.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
I’m going to use the powder charge that Frank Barnes shows. 23 grs. of 4198. He is usually close and safe. I’ll use a small piece of dense cotton to hold the powder next to the primer. I want to see what happens with the 75% void left in the case.
My guestimate is that you will need something close to 30 grains to get the velocity near the 1,500 fps range. What is the bullet weight for the loads you will be shooting?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
I’m going to use the powder charge that Frank Barnes shows. 23 grs. of 4198. He is usually close and safe. I’ll use a small piece of dense cotton to hold the powder next to the primer. I want to see what happens with the 75% void left in the case.
My guestimate is that you will need something close to 30 grains to get the velocity near the 1,500 fps range. What is the bullet weight for the loads you will be shooting?
Bert
Around 220 grains. See Post 61. 30 grains is about 30% of the black powder charge and it does work with many cartridges. I’m excited to find out the speed and what the filler is doing.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
TXGunNut said
Chuck-
I’m afraid I’m more of an instigator or enabler than babysitter so there are likely better prospects for the job. so I’ve been reading and piddling.
Mike
Hopefully not down your leg.
Chuck-
I don’t believe so…what have you heard?
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Chuck said
TXGunNut said
Chuck-
I’m afraid I’m more of an instigator or enabler than babysitter so there are likely better prospects for the job. so I’ve been reading and piddling.
Mike
Hopefully not down your leg.
Chuck-
I don’t believe so…what have you heard?
Mike
Oh, I can’t repeat that on an open forum.
December 9, 2002
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Chuck,
A great thread as many of us have been interestingly following here. I have paid attention to what you’re doing with interest as I also like the Express S.S. Examples, and have acquired a few, over the years, but this one is in the .38 Ex. that is currently on topic. Bert has this in his Survey.
The Bore looks to be as crisp as the rest of the rifle as I would surely like to take her out this spring and shoot it! The double strike on the #4, showing the barrel size doesn’t bother me in the slightest. The C.C., and the condition on this beauty is pretty nice as the pictures say a thousand words!
Anthony
November 7, 2015
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Anthony-
“Pretty nice” doesn’t quite describe that rifle. Wow! Unfortunately I’m have trouble doing better.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Anthony, that is a very fine rifle. Neither of my EX rifles are in that condition. If you see a 40 EX I’m interested. I’d settle with an unmolested rifle with above average condition.
March 31, 2009
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I just finished loading the 6 rounds. Each was loaded with 23 grs. of 4198. I weighed each bullet and I marked each case so I know what bullet is in each specific case. I also cut some wads/filler in different lengths and kept track of what length went into each case. The wads were 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of the piece of cotton.
Case #1 is the only one with a thin neck and it doesn’t require the bullet to be sized so I used a .380″ bullet and the rest got .379″. Since I’m eyeballing the cutting of the bullets they varied in weight from 202.82 grs. to 212.42 grs. There is not a lot of neck tension on any of the bullets. After I cut them I put the bullets into the drill press and ran them up against a file to chamfer the edges.
Oh, I forgot. I already changed the settings in the chronograph so I hope to finally get some readings.
November 7, 2015
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Progress! And thanks for the hint about chronographs. I pulled the dead batteries out of my Labradar when you posted that jab at yourself and the replacement Lithium batteries arrived a few hours ago. I generally let the targets do the talking but I’m seeing something that needs a bit of ‘splainin’.
I love a good challenge but making that huge case work with smokeless powder and modified bullets is an awesome undertaking. My hat is off to you!
Mike
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Progress! And thanks for the hint about chronographs. I pulled the dead batteries out of my Labradar when you posted that jab at yourself and the replacement Lithium batteries arrived a few hours ago. I generally let the targets do the talking but I’m seeing something that needs a bit of ‘splainin’.
I love a good challenge but making that huge case work with smokeless powder and modified bullets is an awesome undertaking. My hat is off to you!
Mike
Mike you need to quit with the batteries. If you buy a re chargeable battery pack you will save a lot of money. LR doesn’t make these anymore but similar ones are available. You can use the same ones people use for their phones.
https://www.precisionoptics.net/LabRadar_USB_Rechargeable_Battery_Pack_p/labradar-705604522339.htm
November 7, 2015
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Thanks, Chuck. I don’t like using Lithium batteries but I only use my Labradar on occasion. I figure I’ll let myself buy the Garmin if I decide I really need velocity readings on a regular basis. I still have an early Chrony (9 Volt) that still works and has managed to dodge everything I’ve fired at it. It doesn’t like the wind much, maybe the tripod needs to put on a few pounds.
Mike
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