Log In
March 31, 2009
Offline
I loaded the 6 cases and will shoot them tomorrow. I have a lot of FFFg and not so much FFg so I have using some of each when loading the 45 grains. About a 50/50 mixture. Hopefully the 2nd fire forming will be enough. If these don’t all come out with the same measurements I will shoot them a 3rd time. I’ve been robbing bullets from some 38-55 rounds and then sanding them to length/weight. I need to make my jig a bit more user friendly since nobody makes 38 Cal .380″ 215 grain bullets. It would be nice to safely cut these with the radial arm saw. Believe me carbide tipped blades will cut all non ferrous metals easily and with no harm to the blade. I just need a better way to hold the bullets while doing so.
March 31, 2009
Offline
Shot the 6 cases. Some still have a few small dimples. Next time I’m going to increase the powder charge to 75%. I am also going to use a larger diameter bullet. The case mouth is too large now for the bullets and I don’t have a way to size the neck. I’m starting to get leakage. I had been using the smallest of the 3 diameters I have, .376″. Next time I will use some .380″. Now I get to clean the rifle. Man, do I hate cleaning black powder.
March 31, 2009
Offline
Last night I had some free time so I prepared the cases for primers and powder. I cut the bullets with the radial arm saw. Way easier and faster. Then I beveled the bottom edge of the bullets. I also mixed some FFg and FFFg. I don’t have a lot of FFg but have too much FFFg. I cut the filler wads to length. Everything is done so I’m ready to load the cartridges. Dirty rifle is still sitting there.
April 15, 2005
Offline
Chuck said
Last night I had some free time so I prepared the cases for primers and powder. I cut the bullets with the radial arm saw. Way easier and faster. Then I beveled the bottom edge of the bullets. I also mixed some FFg and FFFg. I don’t have a lot of FFg but have too much FFFg. I cut the filler wads to length. Everything is done so I’m ready to load the cartridges. Dirty rifle is still sitting there.
Why not load them with IMR 4198 ? Clean the rifle real good, and then load & shoot with the smokeless powder going forward.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
Offline
Bert H. said
Chuck said
Last night I had some free time so I prepared the cases for primers and powder. I cut the bullets with the radial arm saw. Way easier and faster. Then I beveled the bottom edge of the bullets. I also mixed some FFg and FFFg. I don’t have a lot of FFg but have too much FFFg. I cut the filler wads to length. Everything is done so I’m ready to load the cartridges. Dirty rifle is still sitting there.
Why not load them with IMR 4198 ? Clean the rifle real good, and then load & shoot with the smokeless powder going forward.
After I get done fire forming I plan to use IMR 4198. I don’t get the best results when using the 4198 for fire forming. I tried this when I was forming the 45 EX cases. The cases just don’t turn out formed as smoothly. I had a little less of the same problem when I used smokeless when forming the Lee Navy cases. I’m hoping my next firing will be my last fire forming.
After thinking more about this I’m going to shoot a full charge of black powder. I went to the reduced loads because I was splitting cases on the first firing. Now that almost all the forming is done I doubt any of the cases will split.
March 31, 2009
Offline
Cleaned the rifle. Took about a half hour. The picture on the bottom is after my first pass with a brush. Ran the brush back and forth a few more times but most of the loose stuff came out on the first pass. The top picture is all of the patches I used to get the remaining black powder out. There are 12 patches below the cleaning rod handle. These were ran through the barrel dry and each side of the patch was used. On the left there are some bits of patches that I use as a backer to make the patch fit tighter. As the cleaning goes so does the size of the backer. The bottom row is where I used a barrel flush. I ran the one on the left with the flush then ran the rest going from left to right. Once the patches started coming out dry I started using both sides of the patch.
April 15, 2005
Offline
Chuck said
Cleaned the rifle. Took about a half hour. The picture on the bottom is after my first pass with a brush. Ran the brush back and forth a few more times but most of the loose stuff came out on the first pass. The top picture is all of the patches I used to get the remaining black powder out. There are 12 patches below the cleaning rod handle. These were ran through the barrel dry and each side of the patch was used. On the left there are some bits of patches that I use as a backer to make the patch fit tighter. As the cleaning goes so does the size of the backer. The bottom row is where I used a barrel flush. I ran the one on the left with the flush then ran the rest going from left to right. Once the patches started coming out dry I started using both sides of the patch.
And that is exactly why I never load or shoot black powder cartridges in ANY of my old Winchesters!! If I had to load and shoot the shells a dozen times or more with 4198 to get them fire formed, I would do it versus just 2 or 3 cycles with black powder. I very strongly detest cleaning up the black powder residue, and not just the rifle… you also have to clean the empty shell cases.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
Offline
Bert H. said
And that is exactly why I never load or shoot black powder cartridges in ANY of my old Winchesters!! If I had to load and shoot the shells a dozen times or more with 4198 to get them fire formed, I would do it versus just 2 or 3 cycles with black powder. I very strongly detest cleaning up the black powder residue, and not just the rifle… you also have to clean the empty shell cases.
Bert
I soak the cases in a jar full of soapy water, shaking periodically. The next day I rinse them with hot water. Primer pockets need to be done before the soak. If wet you’ll end up with a gooey mess. That’s why I spend the time removing as much of the dry residue in the barrel before I flush it out. I have fire formed cases with smokeless right from the start. But it does not work as well on these very long high volume cases. I seem to be able to control the pressure better with the black powder. I have a handful of Colt percussion pistols that I have never shot just because of the issues with black powder.
November 7, 2015
Offline
I spend more time cleaning BP cases than I do rifles. I decap, brush the insides and drop them in soapy water as Chuck does. After rinsing I run them thru my ultrasonic cleaner and another rinse. Then I dry them in a warm oven (single guys get away with that!) or the hot Texas sun. If I want shiny brass I’ll run them thru a vibratory dry media cleaner. The result is brass that looks new, inside and out. It takes a several hours but most of that time is soaking or letting the machines work. I don’t know an easier way to clean a BP rifle than Windex with vinegar. If I want to be messy I have some moose milk mixed up, sometimes I just gotta shoot a C&B revolver! With a single shot rifle or muzzle loader burning charcoal I spend less time and same mess as shooting a rifle using smokeless. My lead bullets leave only powder and lube residue, much easier to remove than copper, IMHO.
Mike
March 31, 2009
Offline
TXGunNut said
I spend more time cleaning BP cases than I do rifles. I decap, brush the insides and drop them in soapy water as Chuck does. After rinsing I run them thru my ultrasonic cleaner and another rinse. Then I dry them in a warm oven (single guys get away with that!) or the hot Texas sun. If I want shiny brass I’ll run them thru a vibratory dry media cleaner. The result is brass that looks new, inside and out. It takes a several hours but most of that time is soaking or letting the machines work. I don’t know an easier way to clean a BP rifle than Windex with vinegar. If I want to be messy I have some moose milk mixed up, sometimes I just gotta shoot a C&B revolver! With a single shot rifle or muzzle loader burning charcoal I spend less time and same mess as shooting a rifle using smokeless. My lead bullets leave only powder and lube residue, much easier to remove than copper, IMHO.
Mike
Mike, I have used the vinegar and windex method too. No matter what you use once the powder gets wet it turns into a mess. I made a mistake once and did not let the cases fully dry before I put them in my vibratory cleaner. I had to dig out the primer pockets.
September 19, 2014
Offline
Chuck, I bet that is the last time you don’t let them dry first! I did that once and once is one too many times. Tim
September 19, 2014
Offline
For all. Bill Rumnie shot a lot of black powder cartridge rifles. Kept trying to get me to do so, but that is another tale for another time. Soon as he shoots, he uses a hand press to deprime his brass. It then immediately goes into an old Tide laundry detergent jug with soapy water. Shakes it a fair amount when no one is trying to shoot. He tells me he does not do anything more but dry the brass when he gets home. Bill has now had several strokes, and his son who was caring for him had a fatal stroke. Bill does not do well talking. The lights are on but no one is home. Too late to find out some of his techniques. He WAS one impressive shooter! Tim
November 7, 2015
Offline
tim tomlinson said
For all. Bill Rumnie shot a lot of black powder cartridge rifles. Kept trying to get me to do so, but that is another tale for another time. Soon as he shoots, he uses a hand press to deprime his brass. It then immediately goes into an old Tide laundry detergent jug with soapy water. Shakes it a fair amount when no one is trying to shoot. He tells me he does not do anything more but dry the brass when he gets home. Bill has now had several strokes, and his son who was caring for him had a fatal stroke. Bill does not do well talking. The lights are on but no one is home. Too late to find out some of his techniques. He WAS one impressive shooter! Tim
I’ve known BPCR shooters who do little, if anything, more than your friend Bill. I think some brush them out but I suspect some of them just take the bumpy road home.
Mike
March 31, 2009
Offline
Shot the 6 rounds with the .380″ bullets. A couple of the loaded cartridges still had to be forced into the chamber due to neck expansion by the bullet. After firing they all ejected, some easier than others. The necks get thinner each firing so I’m hoping the cartridges all get easier to chamber. I do have some .381″ bullets I may use next time. Remember, I slugged the bore at .380″.
Most small dents have been removed but there are still some remaining. I noticed a couple of the primers had backed out some so I’m not going to use the full load of 90 grains.
As the brass forms the cases are expanding and growing in length. I messed around with the RCBS trimmer I have and was able to find a set up that worked. It was just barely long enough to accept these cases. The problem is the cutter just doesn’t want to cut. It does scrape a little. I have a Frankford Arsenal tool I’m hoping I can modify to cut these cases to length. The shortest case is 3.221″ and the longest is 3.278″. When I trim them I plan to cut them to 3.250″. Only the one case is shorter than 3.250″.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Chuck-
I’m thinking your .380 bullets may be a bit big for your chamber. Something you may want to try; just touch the case mouth with a sizing die after seating the bullet.
Mike
March 31, 2009
Offline
TXGunNut said
Chuck-
I’m thinking your .380 bullets may be a bit big for your chamber. Something you may want to try; just touch the case mouth with a sizing die after seating the bullet.
Mike
Mike, I wish I had a die that these cases will go into. The closest I have is 38-55 dies. The 38 EX cases will not go in far enough to do anything. They are too fat to soon. I really don’t want to shoot .375″ bullets in a .380″ bore.
I have been pushing the loaded cartridge into one of the sizing holes just enough to squeeze the area of the seated bullet. I’m hoping things get better. But if I have to, after going to the .381″ bullets, I might ream the necks .001″ or so. I do have a neck lathe but I’m not cutting the outside of these. If these had a shoulder to cut up against you get a cutter that matches the shoulder angle. I could order a die from Lee Precision that could re size the bullets. I have one I use when I size 45 ACP bullets to .443″ for the Henry and 1866 rounds.
November 7, 2015
Offline
I have a similar problem with a tight bore but my other solution is something probably not doable in your case, I’m going to cast some 20-1 alloy bullets in a mould that drops a bit smaller bullet. I may even resort to BP to bump it up a bit. Maybe a 38-357 die would taper it down with just a light touch at the mouth of the die.
Mike
March 31, 2009
Offline
I loaded the 6 cartridges. This time I only used 75 grains of powder but used the larger .381″ bullets. I had just received a die that I bought at Wards Auctions. It has a body and two tapered expanders. One goes from 30 to 40 and the other 40 to 45. I couldn’t use it in a press because of the case length but I did slide the expander in the case and then smacked it on the work bench. Opened the necks just enough for easy bullet seating.
I just realized, DUH, that I might have to buy a 5th press if I want to use dies in the future for the 45 EX and 38 EX. I don’t have one that may be tall enough.
I looked online and found replacement cutters for the RCBS trimmer. Steel is $20 and carbide $50. I need to order one of these because I have so many straight wall cases that I might have to trim.
Before I ordered one I started playing with the Frankford Arsenal. Although this cutter uses shims that go up against a shoulder I was able to stack a couple of these and get the brass away from the cutter head. Luckily these cases have enough of a taper for the smallest shim to get stuck. After messing with it for some time I got it to work and trimmed the cases. I did not mess with the 1 that is already too short but got the other 5 fairly close. They are about .002″ of each other. They were as much as .016″.
Looks like rain Tuesday. But, with luck, it will come in later in the day. I wouldn’t be bothered shooting in the rain but it ruins the target and target backer I use for the target rifle. I’d hate to drive 1-1/2 hrs each way to just shoot 6 rounds. With range fees and about 5 gallons of gas that’s a lot for just 6 rounds.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Those big presses are kinda pricey. Almost needed pics to figure out what you were doing with the cutter. Did the ammo with the .381 bullets chamber?
Mike
March 31, 2009
Offline
TXGunNut said
Those big presses are kinda pricey. Almost needed pics to figure out what you were doing with the cutter. Did the ammo with the .381 bullets chamber?
Mike
I hope I don’t need another press. But if I do I’ll look for a used one. I have not tried to chamber the cartridges. All my rifle stuff is put away. We are having company and I don’t want the kids messing with anything.
I’ll see what I can do about pics. This tool is hard for me to use. The cutter stays in place and you move the case as needed. The shaft that holds the cutter is threaded so the piece that holds the case can be threaded on and can be adjusted. Thing is the threads are cut so clockwise loosens. There is a lock nut on this shaft that you have to mess with and the part that moves the cases into the cutter. Bottom line, you have 3 threaded parts to adjust and 2 of them don’t operate in the normal direction. Every time I touch something I go the wrong direction.
1 Guest(s)
