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April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Not that Bert is losing weight isn’t important but here are my latest shooting results.
Shot the six rounds. All went into the chamber but one is still tight coming out. I had been soaking the rounds and looked at them today and found that one of them has a circumferential split near the neck. I’ll cut the bad portion off. I can probably still use it but if not I never throw out long pieces of brass. I think I’m going to re shoot the 1 piece that is tight and not the others?
I need to bug Lee Precision and get an update on the 45 EX dies. The 38 EX and 40 EX brass is ready to ship to them but I’d like to see the 45 EX first. I want them to make an additional die/dies that will pre form the brass enough to get into the full length sizing die.
Are you still loading these with BP ? The ES result is way too much. Good call on the dies.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Yesterday I loaded 3 cartridges with 30 grains of 4198. This is several grains lower than what the Barnes data says. I need to contact Lee and see if I am ever going to get the 45 dies.
March 31, 2009
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I fired, or tried to fire, the 3 cartridges yesterday. The first one graphed at 1,221 fps. Low but it was a cold bore shot. I was expecting the next 2 to speed up some. The second one did not fire. Bad primer. It shows a good firing pin hit. The third one really surprised me. The chronograph showed only 981 fps?
I guess I need to shoot some more and increase the powder by another grain to 31.
November 7, 2015
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May want to try another lot of primers. Any word from Lee?
Mike
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
I fired, or tried to fire, the 3 cartridges yesterday. The first one graphed at 1,221 fps. Low but it was a cold bore shot. I was expecting the next 2 to speed up some. The second one did not fire. Bad primer. It shows a good firing pin hit. The third one really surprised me. The chronograph showed only 981 fps?
I guess I need to shoot some more and increase the powder by another grain to 31.
Chuck,
IMR 4198 is not conducive to excessively light loads. Load it at +1 grain above the recommended minimum charge weight, and then work up from there.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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You know I won’t do that. I start under the recommended load and work up. I do not have any data that shows more than one load. Barnes says to use 32 grains of 4198 for 1,650 fps. Factory black powder loads shot at 1,617 fps.
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
May want to try another lot of primers. Any word from Lee?
Mike
Mike, this is the same lot I have been shooting for the other express cartridges too. When I de capped the primer the guts had fallen out somewhere.
No word from Lee Precision. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. They won’t let you talk with the shop personnel. I need to find a way to get passed the lady that answers the phone calls and relays all the messages.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
You know I won’t do that. I start under the recommended load and work up. I do not have any data that shows more than one load. Barnes says to use 32 grains of 4198 for 1,650 fps. Factory black powder loads shot at 1,617 fps.
Chuck,
I can understand using caution when developing loads that you are not experienced or intimately familiar with, but I will remind you of this fact… that high-wall frame will safely handle way more pressure than you will ever subject it to with the IMR 4198 loads you are using. Due to its burn rate and burn characteristics, you would have to load it to nearly 200% before any worry about the pressure causing any safety issues.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
Chuck,
that high-wall frame will safely handle way more pressure than you will ever subject it to with the IMR 4198 loads you are using. Due to its burn rate and burn characteristics, you would have to load it to nearly 200% before any worry about the pressure causing any safety issues.
Bert
I am aware of how strong the action is but there is no safe reason to push it passed the factory loads. This rifle is 136 years old and one of the rarer rifles that I have. I have no idea how it was treated in the past but I do know I’m not going to abuse it. I plan to at least work it up to around the 1,600 fps range no matter what the powder charge might be.
I recently read, in the Win 1873/1876 book by David Butler, where he shows results of a test that figured energy per grain of powder for the 45-75 and a 308. Not a lot of data but the end result was the 75 grains of black powder generated 1,485 psi of muzzle energy for 20 psi per grain and 47 grains of the the unknown smokeless powder generated 2,730 psi muzzle energy or 58 psi per grain. That’s almost 2x difference in muzzle pressure.
If any of you don’t have this book, don’t pay much for it. It does list the cartridges on the 1874 cartridge board. All rimfire except the 44 WCF.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
Chuck,
that high-wall frame will safely handle way more pressure than you will ever subject it to with the IMR 4198 loads you are using. Due to its burn rate and burn characteristics, you would have to load it to nearly 200% before any worry about the pressure causing any safety issues.
Bert
I am aware of how strong the action is but there is no safe reason to push it passed the factory loads. This rifle is 136 years old and one of the rarer rifles that I have. I have no idea how it was treated in the past but I do know I’m not going to abuse it. I plan to at least work it up to around the 1,600 fps range no matter what the powder charge might be.
I recently read, in the Win 1873/1876 book by David Butler, where he shows results of a test that figured energy per grain of powder for the 45-75 and a 308. Not a lot of data but the end result was the 75 grains of black powder generated 1,485 psi of muzzle energy for 20 psi per grain and 47 grains of the the unknown smokeless powder generated 2,730 psi muzzle energy or 58 psi per grain. That’s almost 2x difference in muzzle pressure.
If any of you don’t have this book, don’t pay much for it. It does list the cartridges on the 1874 cartridge board. All rimfire except the 44 WCF.
I am not advocating loading excessive loads… simply a grain or two above the minimum recommend load, and nothing less than minimum. Intentionally loading under the minimum recommended load will cause erratic pressure & velocity.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
The problem with Butler’s ratios is that the relationship between powder and pressure and velocity changes based on case volume, case shape, bullet weight, temperature and other factors. That ratio will probably work for one cartridge and one bullet but will be affected by other factors. My reloading mentor years ago told me smokeless powder is not linear in behavior and I’m glad he got that into my thick head over 40 years ago. For quite a few of the cartridges I like there seems to be a constant relationship between BP and 4198 but in many of those cartridges BP will outperform 4198. IMHO smokeless powder did not and never will replace Holy Black. Smokeless powder ushered in a whole new class of cartridges and is pretty awesome stuff. BP cartridges in BP-era rifles will always perform best with Holy Black, again IMHO. I have my fun with smokeless in BP cartridges but it’s very hard to beat Holy Black. Many good BPCR loads have single-digit SD”s, lots of very good smokeless loads can’t do that. I’m hoping to shoot a few BP 45 Colt loads this weekend, there are some excellent smokeless loads for this cartridge but few things put a grin on my face like the boom of a BP load in a SAA (replica!).
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
I am not advocating loading excessive loads… simply a grain or two above the minimum recommend load, and nothing less than minimum. Intentionally loading under the minimum recommended load will cause erratic pressure & velocity.
The problem is there is no recommended load data for the EX calibers. Actually that is true for the majority of our old calibers. If anyone has some reputable data I’d love to see it. Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes is the only source I know of that has data for all of our old calibers. But, it is usually just one load per bullet weight and the Factory black powder load.
I did get one erratic shot for the 2 that fired. Both were using the same 30 grains of powder and the same cotton plug to keep the powder up against the primer.
March 31, 2009
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TXGunNut said
Chuck-
The problem with Butler’s ratios is that the relationship between powder and pressure and velocity changes based on case volume, case shape, bullet weight, temperature and other factors. That ratio will probably work for one cartridge and one bullet but will be affected by other factors. My reloading mentor years ago told me smokeless powder is not linear in behavior and I’m glad he got that into my thick head over 40 years ago. For quite a few of the cartridges I like there seems to be a constant relationship between BP and 4198 but in many of those cartridges BP will outperform 4198. IMHO smokeless powder did not and never will replace Holy Black. Smokeless powder ushered in a whole new class of cartridges and is pretty awesome stuff. BP cartridges in BP-era rifles will always perform best with Holy Black, again IMHO. I have my fun with smokeless in BP cartridges but it’s very hard to beat Holy Black. Many good BPCR loads have single-digit SD”s, lots of very good smokeless loads can’t do that. I’m hoping to shoot a few BP 45 Colt loads this weekend, there are some excellent smokeless loads for this cartridge but few things put a grin on my face like the boom of a BP load in a SAA (replica!).
Mike
True, but the modern powder will always have the ability to create more pressure and it doesn’t take much to make a big change. There is a reason I use BP to fire form the cases. It is easier to control the outcome. As far as smokeless powder not being linear, that’s not the case. In my modern rifles I always do a powder ladder test. I pick a starting load and then go up .3 grains for about 3 grains. Each .3 grain load goes up about the same fps. Single digit ES’ is not hard to get when you have a good load. In my case I shoot 5 round groups when doing load development. All it take is an ES of 20 to get a single digit SD. Play with this. The number of shots makes a big difference. 10 shots with an ES of 20 will be a lower SD than the 5 shots.
https://www.calculator.net/standard-deviation-calculator.html
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert H. said
I am not advocating loading excessive loads… simply a grain or two above the minimum recommend load, and nothing less than minimum. Intentionally loading under the minimum recommended load will cause erratic pressure & velocity.
The problem is there is no recommended load data for the EX calibers. Actually that is true for the majority of our old calibers. If anyone has some reputable data I’d love to see it. Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes is the only source I know of that has data for all of our old calibers. But, it is usually just one load per bullet weight and the Factory black powder load.
I did get one erratic shot for the 2 that fired. Both were using the same 30 grains of powder and the same cotton plug to keep the powder up against the primer.
I have no idea where Barnes got his information for the 40 Express cartridge, but using Dupont’s (old) published information, the 40 Express (40-110) can safely be loaded with 44 grains of IMR 4198 (40%). At just 30 grains, you are at just 27%. In your shoes, I would bump it up to at least 36 grains as a starting load.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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First, I’d like to see Dupont’s data and the manual you are quoting from. Why don’t we try some of your loads. Lets pick one of your rifles and load it with 4198 and 4 grains over the Documented load requirement. Totally unsafe.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
First, I’d like to see Dupont’s data and the manual you are quoting from. Why don’t we try some of your loads. Lets pick one of your rifles and load it with 4198 and 4 grains over the Documented load requirement. Totally unsafe.
Chuck,
Again, where did Barnes get his load information from ?? He most certainly was not a ballistics expert. Are you certain his published information is correct ? I most certainly am not of that belief. Further I without any hesitation would load a 40 Express cartridge with 36 grains of IMR 4198 and then shoot it in an original high-wall rifle and think nothing of it. All of that stated, you need to do what you decide is reasonable. Let us know what 4198 load you eventually land on that equals the original factory load.
Bert
p.s. I load 38-55 cartridges with 26 grains of IMR 4198 under a 245 grain .379 cast bullet and shoot them in my high-wall.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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We both know the 40% rule was used at least 75 years ago, maybe before. It does work for some large calibers like the 45-70. It does not work for everything.
https://grokipedia.com/page/frank_c_barnes
Read all of it.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
We both know the 40% rule was used at least 75 years ago, maybe before. It does work for some large calibers like the 45-70. It does not work for everything.
https://grokipedia.com/page/frank_c_barnes
Read all of it.
The proof will be in what the final powder charge is that is required to duplicate the factory load (velocity)… I am willing to bet that it will not be just a mere 32 grains of IMR 4198 in a 40 Express cartridge.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
The proof will be in what the final powder charge is that is required to duplicate the factory load (velocity)… I am willing to bet that it will not be just a mere 32 grains of IMR 4198 in a 40 Express cartridge.
Exactly. We’ll see. I plan to up the powder. I will load some at 31 grs and then 32. I need to figure out what caused the one last time shoot so low while my first shot was around 1200 fps.?
November 7, 2015
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As far as smokeless powder not being linear, that’s not the case. In my modern rifles I always do a powder ladder test. I pick a starting load and then go up .3 grains for about 3 grains. Each .3 grain load goes up about the same fps. Single digit ES’ is not hard to get when you have a good load. In my case I shoot 5 round groups when doing load development. -Chuck
In the optimal range for an appropriate powder in a given cartridge and moving in very small increments during your ladder test the change may appear to be linear for that narrow range but at the lower end the velocities and pressures are erratic (as you experienced) and in many situations the pressures at the upper end can get dangerous in a hurry. That’s why I am quite certain the pressure changes are not linear. I’m pretty sure you know that. Your adventures with these big BP cases are interesting and I think you may just be able to pull it off.
Mike
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