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TXGunNut said
Glad you’re making progress, Chuck. Was headed to the range today but an odd front came through and some critical joints acted up. I’m glad I’m not the only one with a drill press in my loading room. Amazing amount of precision and versatility for the money!
Mike
My loading room is the garage. It is a loading room and wood shop with my wife’s car stuffed in the middle. I have been slowed down because my 32 year old lock and load tool broke. Luckily Amazon Prime ships quickly. I beat the rain yesterday. But it is raining today and most likely the next few days. More problems for those in the burn areas.
I got the new Lock and Load tool a couple days ago. These also come in a curved version for lever actions.
I cleaned the brass. This is a somewhat controversial subject. Some experts don’t clean. But, there is proof that cleaning the primer pockets and brushing the insides of the necks actually aid in accuracy. I use a very stiff nylon bore brush. The slight amount of powder residue left in the brushed necks helps lubricate the bullets. Primer seating depth is important, so get the crud out. One more note. If you use media to clean the brass make sure you add a step to your process to check the flash holes. Sometimes media gets stuck in the hole. When you fire the case it will get blown out but can cause a different flash and ignition can be different.
Since the brass has been fired twice and work hardened I annealed the brass. I will anneal after each firing from now on. This helps greatly to get the headspace and neck tension the same for all the pieces each time. The more you work harden the brass the rebound gets greater after you move the brass. The hardening will eventually lead to premature case neck cracking. I just spent money and time fire forming these cases and I want them to live a long time.
My next step is full length sizing and setting the .002″ headspace. This not fun. You have to make very small adjustments so you don’t over bump the shoulder. If you do it can effect the life of the brass. Excess moving of the brass is not a good thing. You know what metal does if you keep bending it back and forth.
Chuck,
I tumble all of my brass with the old (fired) primer still in place to prevent having to go to the added step of picking the stuck pieces of media out of the flash hole and then I clean the primer pocket by hand immediately after de-priming it. To maintain the utmost consistency with the seating depth, I use an Ideal 310 loading tool & priming die. It allows for fine tuning the seating depth and consistency.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I de cap the primers first thing because I want to inspect and measure the brass. Sometimes a primer may cause a bad reading. My universal de capping die is always in the Rock Chucker. I actually tumble my brass twice. I use a spray lube for sizing and this has to get cleaned off. Right before I re prime I check the flash holes. You always need to make sure there is no lubricant left on the brass or in the chamber. This can cause great harm to you and your rifle. Use a bore mop for the chamber. I also clean behind the locking lugs in the receiver. There is a tool that holds a pad that will get behind the lugs.
This is just one.
Thanks for the Chamber-Lug Groves cleaning link, I hadn’t realized anything like it was available. I’m very thorough to clean mine, but best I can with the big foam swabs, bending the sticks, or cutting em short and using needle nose pliers, little bit everything tried. I’d ordered these earlier today, ordered 200 Hornady IL .277 $21 box, but I’ll get one next go around!
The rectangular swabs won’t tear apart and can be cleaned with a good gun scrubbing spray. The rounds ones do tear apart and can be cleaned or the outside dirty part can be stripped away. These are a lot cheaper to buy than the rectangular ones. Slip these in and spin the rod around. You may be surprised how much stuff you find.
When you lube the bolt lugs make sure you keep pressing the bolt in when you first turn it to spread the lube. If not the two surfaces will just scrape the lube off.
After cleaning the brass I sized the cases, base to shoulder, to get the .002″ of head space. I then ran a .275″ expander mandrel in them twice to get .002″ of neck tension. When I move brass during sizing or expanding I always pause for a few seconds to let the brass settle while still in the die.
My next step was trimming the brass to the same length. My trimmer not only trims but it also chamfers and de burrs at the same time. I tried to set up the trimmer for the shortest case. One reason people trim the brass is to make sure it will fit the chamber but another reason is to get the most consistent neck tension. You want the same amount of bullet to get squeezed.
Before I seated the primers I checked each flash hole. I did find 1 that had media in it. 45 of the 50 primers were set .008″ below flush. 3 came out .009″ and 2 at .010″.
I used the lock and load tool to find touch for this bullet. It takes multiple tries to figure it out. Lube the case and then insert the bullet into the case. Push the case into the chamber until the shoulder touches the chamber. Very lightly push the bullet forward until it touches the lands and lock the rod in place. The bullet almost always sticks in the lands when you pull the tool out. Lightly tap the butt on a solid surface and the bullet usually drops out. Some times you have to use a cleaning rod to tap it loose. Put the bullet in the tool and measure the base to ogive. After a handful of tries you will get the same number. This touch or close enough to it.
Lunch break
Remember I loaded a bullet at 2.694″, hard jam. This caused a harder bolt lift but did not cause excess speed or any primer issues. Always be careful when loading. It doesn’t take much to get into trouble. The other 50 bullets were seated to hard jam minus .020″, 2.674″. I now know what the touch is, 2.646″. So at hard jam I was in the lands .048″ and the other 50 were in the lands .028″. I am going to seat the bullets at 2.636″ base to ogive. .010″ off touch.
The next step is to do a powder ladder test. I will pick a starting point somewhere in the middle of the range between the starting load and max load. I will load 3 cases with powder. Then 3 more plus .2 grains. Then 3 more plus another .2 grains and so on for the all of the cases. Along the way I hope to find several nodes or flat spots where the fps does not change much between 2 to 3 grain increases. If I succeed I will go back and test each of the nodes to see which one shoots best.
Here is some of my tools.
Now that I am not trying to force the fire forming by seating in the lands I can use more powder. I loaded the 50 cases with the H 4831 SC. I started at 58 grains and worked up to 60.1 grains. These loads should not get to Book Max. I loaded 3 cases at .2 grain jumps except the last one was only 2 cases. All went well until I started seating the bullets.
The first half of the 50 seated were where I wanted the bullets but after that I had problems. I measured each case base to ogive and the later ones were up to .005″ longer base to ogive. I was trying to maintain the .010″ jump to the lands. This box of bullets looks like two separate batches of bullets. Next time I might have to sort the bullets, base to ogive before seating. To compound the problem I tried to fix some of the seating depths and got some cases out of order. So about three quarters of the way things may get bad results. I am thinking about pulling the bullets and re weighing the powder. I can do it but it is not something I want to do. I probably will shoot as many as I can and when the results look out of wack I will stop. That means I will have to reload the remaining for another attempt.
The increase in speed from one charge to the next is usually pretty linear. Except for the flat spots I’m looking for. I will look at the ES/SD too but right now I want to find the nodes. If I had a scope I would normally look at the group shape and relative position on the target too. You want a node that has good groups on each side of it and in the same position on the target.
Fired 27 rounds yesterday. 3 shots each at 58 grains through 59.6 grains at .2 grain increments. Well, after firing the first round I found out I started too high to get through the 50 rounds. I should have started at about 55 or 56 grains. I looked at 9 different loading manuals and the Max speed varied from 2850 to 3150. So again, which one is correct. If this was a brand new rifle and barrel I would shoot until I found the slightest feel of a hard bolt lift or primer issue and never shoot this hot..
Group 1 the mean was 2982 fps.
Group 2 the mean was 2890 fps with a delta of (+8 fps.) Node, test at 58.1 grains. Half way between Group 1 and Group 2 charge weight.
Group 3 the mean was 3014 fps with a delta of +19 fps.
Group 4 the mean was 3043 fps with a delta of + 29 fps.
Group 5 the mean was 3059 fps with a delta of + 16 fps.
Group 6 the mean was 3060 fps with a delta of (+1 fps.) Node, test at 58.9 grains. Half way between Group 5 and Group 6 charge weight.
Group 7 the mean was 3078 fps with a delta of +18 fps.
Group 8 the mean was 3087 fps with a delta of (+ 9 fps.) Node, test at 59.3 grains. Half way between Group 7 and Group 8 charge weight.
Group 9 the mean was 3092 fps with a delta of (+5 fps.) Node, test at 59.5 grains.Half way between Group 8 and Group 9 charge weight.
At no time did the bolt get tight on open or the primers showed any sign of over pressure.
I plan to test some charges at 56 grains and 57 grains.
After I do this I will shoot 5 shot groups where I found the nodes. And after I install the scope so I can actually see my point of aim.
I did sort the remaining bullets, base to ogive. They varied .006″, shortest to longest. A variance of .002″ or .003″ is well withing the bullet seating node I will eventually find.
I pulled the remaining bullets, dumped the powder, re sized the cases and ran the mandrel. Now they are ready to load the powder and seat bullets.
November 7, 2015
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Sounds like you’re closing in on a load, Chuck. Referring to the mixed-up loaded cartridges I have a fix for that. When I take test cartridges out of the block after seating the bullets I write the load number on the case with a Sharpie. I assign a load number to every combination of components. A letter suffix denotes a variation of the charge weight, a second suffix (eg “GC”), if desired, tells me additional info. That way I don’t worry about a load label getting lost or cartridges getting mixed up. For example my 38-55 load #9 is an Accurate 38-255L bullet in a Starline 2.125 case over XX.0 grains 3031 powder ignited by a RP 9 1/2 primer. I loaded these rounds on 11/4/2017 but when I found them recently I was able to identify them. If I decide after shooting them I need to lower the powder charge by .5 grs that will become load 9A and will be marked accordingly.
Mike
Mike, thanks for the tip. In my case I didn’t get to the ones I mixed up. I use a loading block and try to put them back in the exact hole but somehow I messed up.
I resized the 27 cases that I had shot and primed them. So now I have 50 cases ready for powder. I am going to start the powder ladder at 54.6 grains to 57.8 grains. I usually don’t like to get some cases fired more than the others but I want to get this phase over. I keep track of how many shots down the barrel and how many times the brass has been shot. Here is an Excel spreadsheet I use to track what I do.
I cleaned the barrel and am still getting too much copper. I’m hoping that with more firings I can wear off some of the cut marks.
I loaded the powder and seated the bullets. The seating process went a lot better since I had sorted the bullets, base to ogive. Now they are seated within .002″ of each other.
One important thing we need to talk about is the use of a chronograph. I have never loaded without one. It was one of my first purchases in the late 1980’s.
I have 2 but only use the Labradar.
The older models that have screens and V’s you have to shoot through are not seen much on the ranges. These are harder to set up and get blown over in the wind. If this one is all you have, use it. I used to set mine up so I could get the info and at the same time hit the target.
The Magneto Speeds are probably the cheapest but may have a problem mounting correctly on a full magazine rifle. The pick up needs to be right under the barrel so the bullet goes right over the top of the arm. One problem with the chronographs that hang on the barrels is the point of impact may not be the same when the unit is removed. Also if it becomes loose the POI will change.
The Garmin is very popular. It gives you the basic readings and is not sensitive to the position in relation to the barrel.
I want to continue talking about how important a chronograph is. When you look at a loading manual for help I have already shown you they are all different. Some will tell you about some of the materials they used, like primers, bullets and brass. BUT they don’t tell you how far they seated the bullet into the lands or into the case. They don’t tell you what the neck tension is. None of them talk about using fire formed cases that have a known head space and a consistent case volume.
You can increase pressure just by not seating the bullet properly in relation to the lands. Deeper into the lands or into the case can cause an increase in speed/pressure. Too much neck tension will cause the pressure to go up. Hotter primers can raise the pressure. You are playing Russian Roulette without a chrono especially if you live on the fast side.
Without a chronograph you really don’t have any idea what is going on. Be safe and buy one.
Even I saw this so clearly when I got one put it to use! I’m only in grade school as to reloading, but I have learned plenty enough to where I now trust my judgment as to safety, satisfaction of my own good product, and the chronograph open my eyes to several aspects I’d never realized before!
But your work here is interesting to me, especially since I’ve just started down the 270WCF reloading road. But all I care for is quality & consistent hunting ammo. But I’m sure anyone who puts the time, work, study & thought into a goal such as you’re doing here, the payoff will be there, provided the goal is in the heart worthy! Then, no matter what anyone else thinks otherwise!
But reloading apart from a chronograph is just working to go bang, I’d rather have factory ammo!
There is no guarantee that my efforts will produce target accuracy. Every barrel is different. Nobody can take someone else’s load data and expect it to work the same in their barrel. The process is the key.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Chuck said
There is no guarantee that my efforts will produce target accuracy. Every barrel is different. Nobody can take someone else’s load data and expect it to work the same in their barrel. The process is the key.
The more I learn about handloading the more I’m impressed with factory loads. When I started loading for the 30-06 I bought factory RP rounds because they didn’t cost much more than brass and I needed brass. It probably took me a couple of years to learn how to load a round that would outperform standard green and yellow box Remington Core-Lokt ammunition. Yes, my rifle may have just happened to REALLY like that load but I’m sure I wore out at least 100 pieces of brass chasing a load that rifle liked better.
But you’re right, some sporting rifles are simply not capable of fine accuracy. Some tweaks to the action, stock and barrel may help, but not always.
Mike
At the end I am going to play with the forward action screw. I tightened it but it may shoot better a little less tight. This screw doesn’t let the barrel float. My target rifles have 2 screws, one on each side of the action. Nothing that keeps the barrel from floating.
I spent some time today removing a scope from one of my other rifles and mounting it on the Model 70. It’s a 5.5 to 22 power. Seeing my point of aim might help me. I also put a tripod on the front. I need to go test the trigger. A lighter trigger always helps. Just not so light that it is unsafe in the field. A set trigger or even a two stage would be nice.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Chuck-
I’ve had best results with a barely snug forward screw. I’ve also had good results glass bedding the action but you may not want to do that if your 270 has significant collector value. I was also able to find someone who could make the pre-64 type Model 70 trigger very serviceable, at least for hunting purposes, unlike the BACO unit I hunt with that required a Timney trigger. Good move on the bipod, sometimes I have better results with a bipod than bag rests.
Sounds like things are about to get interesting!
Mike
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