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1876 Winchester Accuracy
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February 22, 2025 - 12:14 am
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Like some of you I read a magazine article recently about the inherent inaccuracy of the 1876 Winchester. I couldn’t tell if this was referring to the rifle or cartridge or both. I don’t have any experience with the rifle or any of its rather interesting cartridges but I’m having trouble swallowing that, even with a quote from Col. Whelen for confirmation. Quite honestly I have very interest in the 1876 other than the unique cartridges but I’m having trouble believing what I read.

 

 

Mike

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February 22, 2025 - 1:44 am
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Curious to know, What article are you talking about specifically?

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February 22, 2025 - 3:34 am
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“I Have This Old Gun”, American Rifleman, February 2025. I was mistaken, it quoted Maj. Ned Roberts, not Col. Whelen. Whelen was a fan of accurate rifles, as you may recall. Roberts may have been referring to the 50-95 but the article is not clear.

 

Mike

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February 22, 2025 - 5:18 pm
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Paging Rick Bachman Win4575 to a white courtesy phone…

For its day the Centennial rifle had a good reputation, sold better than its competition, and made Winchester money. 

Al Sieber, chief of scouts in some of General Crook’s Apache campaigns used a Model 1876 in .45-75 during the Battle of Big Dry Wash, July 17, 1882.  The battle report said he killed several Apaches.  Would you go into combat with a rifle that had poor accuracy?  

Battle of Big Dry Wash

Winchester published some Model 1876 accuracy and action strength reports in the May 1, 1879 catalog.  James E. Stetson used a prototype Model 1876 rifle in .45-75 for this competition.  See excerpts below. 

Also to be considered are the many sales of carbines to the North West Mounted Police over many years.  

Finally, if you read the late Mike Venturino’s book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, he quotes an un-named Winchester collector as saying that he “considered the Model 1876 to be the most inherently accurate of all lever action Winchesters.”  See page 52 for this quote.

I forgot to add Theodore Roosevelt to the list of contemporaries that liked and owned 1876 rifles.  

IMG_3433.JPGImage Enlarger

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I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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February 22, 2025 - 8:24 pm
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That’s more in line with my thinking, Bill. In the above-referenced book MLV was not able to achieve great accuracy with the 50-95 but it was a borrowed gun and perhaps he didn’t do enough shooting to develop an accurate load. Or maybe this is the cartridge the article referenced. I believe his friend was referring to the 45-75, I’ve always thought that was an interesting round.

 

Mike

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February 23, 2025 - 2:19 am
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Bill and Mike,  I was going to pass by on this topic but just couldn’t.  I have shot a second model 1876 in .45-75 a fair amount (not near what John Hawke did!).  It shoots well enough to keep me happy.  I use a cast, bare 300 grain bullet of 0.458 diameter and keep it at about 1300fps.  I have also shot the .40-60 but find it under powered for silhouettes.  Its kind of a super .38-40 WCF if you ask me.  I have fired too few through my 50-95 to draw conclusions.  I have not shot the .45-60 as why do that when I have a .45-75?  My biggest limitation on the rifle is the vee sights as I no longer can draw a fine enough aim with them.  If I was serious I would use a tang sight and find out just what it can do.  I bet Shrapnel also thinks the .45-75 is adequately accurate!  Tim

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February 23, 2025 - 5:57 am
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 I have shot every 1876 I ever owned, 40-60, 45-60, 45-75, and 50-95 with smokeless. All hand loaded to Winchester velocity with cast bullets, all shot accurate.  All 45-75s and 50-95s needed TP fillers. Because of the slow speed rainbow trajectory you need 20 fps spread strings and fillers worked for me. I tried  speeding them up but groups got bigger, jacketed worked well but was expensive. These guns are accurate.

 Shooting the 45-75 and the 50-95 makes me nervous, there is not a lot of metal around the bottle neck cartridge. The 45-60 is cheap to load,  accurate, and fun to shoot. T/R

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February 23, 2025 - 6:05 pm
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I used to use black powder in my 76’s but a few years ago I developed smokeless loads.  The 76 is way stronger than most people think.  I can’t remember the article but this person took out 1 set of toggles and shot some pretty hot loads.  No problems.  My 45-75 and 50-95 shoot about the same groups as my other Winchesters with no real load development for accuracy.  Good bullets, finding the right seating depth and the best powder charge can really make a difference.  I just have not put in the time.

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February 23, 2025 - 11:49 pm
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Over the past 50 years, I’ve owned quite a few 1876 rifles and carbines in all four calibers.  I’ve loaded ammunition for these four calibers and even today, I shoot a .45-75 carbine and a rifle in .50 Express on a regular basis.  I use reformed. 348 Win brass for both caliber’s and load with original Winchester tools and bullet molds.  I have found them to be very accurate, even at ranges over 250 yards.  I have tried smokeless loads, but prefer shooting blackpowder and believe I get better accuracy with black, especially with a good bullet lube.  

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March 2, 2025 - 6:52 pm
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I’ve owned and shot three original 76’s. Two were rifles chambered in 45-60 and the one I still have is an original NWMP SRC 45-75. Here are photos of targets from all three. Please keep in mind that I’m an old geezer, 70 years old, and using open iron sights. You can bet that these old ones are capable of significantly better accuracy than what I pulled off. I’m still working on loads for the NWMP.

  1. The photo with no information written on the target is the original NWMP 45-75 carbine, 6 shots at 100 yards (two shots made one elongated hole). The rear sight notch is really far too tiny for my old eyes, so it is awfully hard to get a sight picture. The 6 shots went into 4 3/4″ at 100 yds.
  2. The photo with the squares on the target was my first ’76 rifle in 45-60, and I shot it mostly at 50 yards. Of the 13 shots, 8 of them went into a 2″ circle at 50 yards. If I recall, I was using a 330-grain Gould cast bullet here. Possibly, a proper-weight 300 grain would have given better results. Remember, I’m an old guy with old eyes shooting with open iron sights, so I’m sure the rifle is capable of better than this.
  3. The final photo with the round target circles was shot with my other, round-barreled ’76 in 45-60. It put 5 rounds into 3 inches at 100 yards with a proper-weight 300-grain cast bullet. Notice that 4 of those bullets clustered to within about 2″ at 100 yards.

For #1 (the NWMP SRC) I think that with some practice, this coming summer, I can do better, but I really must emphasize that that rear sight notch is so tiny, it is completely filled with the front sight blade, so it is very difficult to figure out exactly where the tip of that front blade is. For #2, the bore was not the greatest, with a significant level of pitting, roughness, and fainter lands. For #3, the bore was good. For old eyes, open iron sights, a five-shot group at 100 yards of 3″ with an original ’76, I’d say the original ’76 was as accurate as the original 1886’s (and I’ve shot around 7 or 8 of those). Anyway, here’s the photos …

45-60-I.jpgImage Enlarger45-60-II.jpgImage EnlargerNWMP-45-75.jpgImage Enlarger

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March 2, 2025 - 8:35 pm
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Kirk,

That’s some dam fine shooting if you ask me. I know guys that can’t do that even with a bolt action on a good rest with a scope.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 2, 2025 - 9:54 pm
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Good shooting indeed, Kirk. I’m 65 and I have pretty much given up on open sights for any serious target work, including load development. If the light is right and the sights are easy for my eyes to see I still do pretty well but peeps are just about all I use these days. As Maverick points out, lots of shooters (and more than a few rifles) are not capable of similar or better accuracy.

Something about that writer’s characterization just didn’t ring true, I knew the folks here would be able to enlighten me. Sometimes I don’t shoot well and I have a few old rifles that are a bit past their prime but I don’t fault the gun. After reviewing the article I’ve concluded the writer has likely not had any trigger time with an 1876 or 1873 as he has a low opinion of the toggle link action in general. That’s unfortunate. 

 

Mike

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March 3, 2025 - 2:00 am
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Thanks, Gents, for your generous remarks. Shooting these old timers (with great care, of course) is one of my joys in life. My old eyes have really loosened up my groups in recent years when using iron sights. That can be disappointing to some extent, but my main pleasure is feeling the old timer in my hands, doing my best to sight down that barrel, feeling the thump on my shoulder, the muffled report, and seeing a hole reasonably close to where I wanted that hole to appear 100 yards downrange. Some of my lever guns have tang peeps, and those help enormously. Unfortunately, I have no tang peep for my ’76 NWMP or my ’73  44 WCF (both left the warehouse in 1882), so I just have to do the best I can with those old open iron sights.

When I fire one of these old ones, I feel a connection ‘back there’ in history.

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March 3, 2025 - 2:22 am
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Kirk Durston said
Thanks, Gents, for your generous remarks. Shooting these old timers (with great care, of course) is one of my joys in life. My old eyes have really loosened up my groups in recent years when using iron sights. That can be disappointing to some extent, but my main pleasure is feeling the old timer in my hands, doing my best to sight down that barrel, feeling the thump on my shoulder, the muffled report, and seeing a hole reasonably close to where I wanted that hole to appear 100 yards downrange. Some of my lever guns have tang peeps, and those help enormously. Unfortunately, I have no tang peep for my ’76 NWMP or my ’73  44 WCF (both left the warehouse in 1882), so I just have to do the best I can with those old open iron sights.

When I fire one of these old ones, I feel a connection ‘back there’ in history.

  

I agree, Kirk. Shooting these old guns is touching history. It’s as close as we’ll get to shaking hands with the previous custodians. Besides, I never was very good at shooting a rifle anyway.

 

Mike

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March 3, 2025 - 5:12 pm
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Kirk Durston said
Thanks, Gents, for your generous remarks. Shooting these old timers (with great care, of course) is one of my joys in life. My old eyes have really loosened up my groups in recent years when using iron sights. That can be disappointing to some extent, but my main pleasure is feeling the old timer in my hands, doing my best to sight down that barrel, feeling the thump on my shoulder, the muffled report, and seeing a hole reasonably close to where I wanted that hole to appear 100 yards downrange. Some of my lever guns have tang peeps, and those help enormously. Unfortunately, I have no tang peep for my ’76 NWMP or my ’73  44 WCF (both left the warehouse in 1882), so I just have to do the best I can with those old open iron sights.

When I fire one of these old ones, I feel a connection ‘back there’ in history.

  

I feel your pain.  I shake and I can’t really see where on the target I am actually holding with iron sights at 100 yds.  So without a scope I will hit the target but my groups won’t be good.   But, I love shooting my old guns.

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March 6, 2025 - 5:11 am
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I’m late to this thread and have nothing really meaningful to contribute, chiefly because the only 1876 Winchester I’ve ever laid eyes on close enough to touch was Tim’s  — the one he displayed at Cody and wrote up for the Collector. But it’s certainly a fascinating old gun. 

I’m not sure how accurate fighting rifles had to be for the Indian Wars but considering that, if you could see your enemy at all he was going to be anything but still,  “minute of Apache” may have been adequate. Billy Dixon and his star-crossed Comanche to the contrary notwithstanding.

And the trajectories of 1300 fs big bore projectiles surely made connecting with an enemy further than an unmeasurable couple of hundred yards distant, just good luck. 

The good news had to have been, especially for those armed with the long magazine musket version, the shooter got more than a few tries and “stopping power” was not going to be a controversial issue if he got lucky at all. Of course, that could work both ways and did at Greasy Grass. 

Reading about cartridges for which the 1876 was chambered  illuminates (for me, anyway) just how amazing the .30 Winchester and .25/35 must have seemed at the time of their introduction.  They were surely the .243 of their day. 

- Bill 

 

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April 12, 2025 - 8:29 pm
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To keep kicking this poor dead horse I found an online version of the article referenced.  In regards to accuracy, I think Major Ned Roberts was referring to the .50-95 Express cartridge.  That cartridge was the only one of the four cartridges used in the Model 1876 that had a hollow point bullet by default.

American Rifleman – I Have This Old Gun: Winchester 1876 Express Rifle

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April 13, 2025 - 2:24 am
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Bill Hockett said
To keep kicking this poor dead horse I found an online version of the article referenced.  In regards to accuracy, I think Major Ned Roberts was referring to the .50-95 Express cartridge.  That cartridge was the only one of the four cartridges used in the Model 1876 that had a hollow point bullet by default.

American Rifleman – I Have This Old Gun: Winchester 1876 Express Rifle

  

Thanks, Bill. I suspected he was talking about the 50-95 but was unaware it was the only HP bullet so that makes sense. 

 

Mike

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April 13, 2025 - 2:47 pm
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Since so many of you randomly share a gun with pictures, I figured here is as good a place as any, since this 1876 isn’t a cream puff and maybe doesn’t deserve its own thread…

Picked this one up because of its “possible” lineage, the inlet disc on the forend VERY Faintly reads “ST JOSEPH MO POLICE” and there’s a nice little badge inlet into the stock. Someone aggressively cleaned the hell out of the receiver at some point, but the gun itself is in very nice physical condition. I’m assuming it spent a lot of its life on a rack in an armory. Not a single chewed up screw. I tried the historical society in that area and the police departments looking for a gun history guy to no avail….for now at least.

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