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November 7, 2015
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tim tomlinson said
All, up to now the best I have read is the article by Mike Hunter in the Fall, 2015 “Collector”. Admittedly he starts out by saying “Unfortunately, most of Winchester’s original wood finishing formulas and processes have been lost to time.” His article on wood finishes is based on his research of available materials of the time, period-common formulas, and period-correct practices. Is his article the be all and end all? Probably not. But it will suffice for now or until some previously unknown documents appear with the information of what materials were used, etc. Or until someone develops a time machine to go back and talk to some of the old wood finishers. It would seem every once in a while someone comes up with a seemingly innocent question of “how” or “why”, and now days all that can be done is best guesses. My take at least. Tim PS. In times now also gone, there were short, informative articles in the back of the Dixie catalog on how to make up “period-correct” metal and wood finishes. Kirkwood was good about that, but whether correct or not is another guess.
Thanks, Tim. I think this is another topic where the folks who knew had no idea we’d be so interested in the details. I found Mike Hunter’s article very helpful, I re-read it before “refreshing” the finish on an early 1894. Methinks I need to review.
Mike
I was recently given a first edition hard cover book titled “GUNSTOCK FINISHING AND CARE” by A. Donald Newell and published in 1949 by “SMALL-ARMS TECHNICAL PUBLISHING COMPANY”. I have only scanned it at this time but it might be informative. What I have read so far might help in the research. Don
[email protected] said
I was recently given a first edition hard cover book titled “GUNSTOCK FINISHING AND CARE” by A. Donald Newell and published in 1949 by “SMALL-ARMS TECHNICAL PUBLISHING COMPANY”. I have only scanned it at this time but it might be informative. What I have read so far might help in the research. Don
GIVEN? Pretty sure I paid around $50 for mine, & that was 40 yrs ago! Most comprehensive study of the subject ever published–enough to make your head spin if you try to read it too quickly.
RickC said
I was trying to search the entire forum on finishes(Piano, lacquer, oil, satin,) etc & how they were made by Winchester. I haven’t had any luck so thought someone might have a list of all the possible finishes that could be ordered & how that finish was attained.Wood grades is also a common question I get from new collectors. Below is something I refer too occasionally when looking at wood. I can’t remember where I got it or what book, but it kinda gives you an idea about the wood grades. I think the grade given was subjective to the person doing the grading because some of these are higher or lower than I would classify them, but I have non graded wood on guns that are way nicer imo than ones with graded wood.
RickC
Bert H. said
Rick,To the best of my knowledge, the information you are asking for does not exist in any document that I am aware of. Winchester did not feel it was important enough to specify it in their literature.
Bert
Bert,
I have been on this forum for quite some time without posting and always see your contributions. I was recently connected with a collector who I purchased a pristine model 1886 SRC and a nice 1873. He mentioned to me that he has a model 73 with “deluxe wood”. I’m guessing this is some grade of upgraded wood. It is not a full deluxe and I can’t for the life of me find a 73 with just the upgraded higher grade of wood. I’ve yet to see the gun, but from what I’ve gathered, there’s very little information about Winchester wood grades. If the wood was a special order, is that something that’s documented if I were to get a Cody letter with the serial number? Any information you could provide would be appreciated!
best,
cam
Hello Cam,
The wood “grade” is not something that was normally entered in the factory ledger records, especially for the Fancy or Special Sporting Rifles, and for the Special Single Shot Rifle and Schuetzen Rifle variations. Higher grade stocks were standard on all of the more expensive Winchester model variations.
That stated, on a standard gun that was special ordered with a higher grade wood (versus plain walnut), the notation in the ledger records was usually (but not always) “Fancy stock” or “X Stock”. I have never encountered a notation of “XX” or “XXX” in the Single Shot ledger records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have seen a fair number of 73’s with ledger entries noting the grade of wood using the X’s, a lot of them in the first models. I have a third model blued rifle with a set trigger that does state “x stock”.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Cam,
There is a description of Winchester wood grades with pictures in George Madis’s book, page 595 in my edition. It covers the subject and includes pictures. The page number depends on the books edition. T/R
As Bert and Bob stated factory ledgers will say
fancy
fancy stock
x stock
xx stock
I have documented and own a fair number that state all of the above. I also have ones that state x stock , fancy (together in one letter). even a 3rd model 1873 that states such.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
Bert H. said
Hello Cam,The wood “grade” is not something that was normally entered in the factory ledger records, especially for the Fancy or Special Sporting Rifles, and for the Special Single Shot Rifle and Schuetzen Rifle variations. Higher grade stocks were standard on all of the more expensive Winchester model variations.
That stated, on a standard gun that was special ordered with a higher grade wood (versus plain walnut), the notation in the ledger records was usually (but not always) “Fancy stock” or “X Stock”. I have never encountered a notation of “XX” or “XXX” in the Single Shot ledger records.
Bert
The fancy, checkered rifles I have do not mention the grade of wood in the Factory Letters. They just have X’s on the tang. I had a 73 with a longer than standard barrel with upgraded wood. Nothing made any mention of the upgraded wood.
Here are two examples as recorded in the Single Shot ledger records.
S/N 70194
S/N 70298
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here are some with XXX wood from the early first model 73 ledgers.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Here are some with XXX wood from the early first model 73 ledgers.Bob
Very interesting, thanks for posting it!
It is quite odd that there has not been even a single instance of an “XX” or “XXX” entry in the Single Shot rifle ledgers (I am currently up to serial number 73700 in my survey of the records). Conversely, I have found several dozen with “Fancy” or “X Stock” notations.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
1873man said
Here are some with XXX wood from the early first model 73 ledgers.
Bob
Very interesting, thanks for posting it!
It is quite odd that there has not been even a single instance of an “XX” or “XXX” entry in the Single Shot rifle ledgers (I am currently up to serial number 73700 in my survey of the records). Conversely, I have found several dozen with “Fancy” or “X Stock” notations.
My question would be, How does the ledger notations compare with tang/stock markings? Does one find “XX”s on the tang and nothing noted in the ledger? Or noted “fancy” stock in the ledger with no tang markings? Etc. etc.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
It has been my observation that the tang was marked “XXX” when the “Fancy” notation appeared in the ledger record. I have not had the opportunity to see what was marked on the tang of a rifle with an entry of “X Stock”, but I suspect they too would be marked “XX’ or “XXX”.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
It is interesting this topic should arise. I started to study fancy sporting rifles “deluxe” guns 5 years ago indepth. I started to work on an article over a year ago. I touched base with Brad last February about the article I was preparing by myself. In short I have been working on an article that will answer some of the questions here. I don’t want to spoil it, but I think it will have information valuable to us all.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
Bert H. said
Hello Cam,TXGunNut said
tim tomlinson said
All, up to now the best I have read is the article by Mike Hunter in the Fall, 2015 “Collector”. Admittedly he starts out by saying “Unfortunately, most of Winchester’s original wood finishing formulas and processes have been lost to time.” His article on wood finishes is based on his research of available materials of the time, period-common formulas, and period-correct practices. Is his article the be all and end all? Probably not. But it will suffice for now or until some previously unknown documents appear with the information of what materials were used, etc. Or until someone develops a time machine to go back and talk to some of the old wood finishers. It would seem every once in a while someone comes up with a seemingly innocent question of “how” or “why”, and now days all that can be done is best guesses. My take at least. Tim PS. In times now also gone, there were short, informative articles in the back of the Dixie catalog on how to make up “period-correct” metal and wood finishes. Kirkwood was good about that, but whether correct or not is another guess.
Thanks, Tim. I think this is another topic where the folks who knew had no idea we’d be so interested in the details. I found Mike Hunter’s article very helpful, I re-read it before “refreshing” the finish on an early 1894. Methinks I need to review.
Mike
Jeremy Scott. said
It is interesting this topic should arise. I started to study fancy sporting rifles “deluxe” guns 5 years ago indepth. I have inspected hundreds and own over 50 myself. I started a study for an article over a year ago. I touched base with Brad last February about the article I was preparing by myself. In short I have been working on an article that will answer some of the questions here. I don’t want to spoil it, but I think it will have information valuable to us all.
The wood “grade” is not something that was normally entered in the factory ledger records, especially for the Fancy or Special Sporting Rifles, and for the Special Single Shot Rifle and Schuetzen Rifle variations. Higher grade stocks were standard on all of the more expensive Winchester model variations.
That stated, on a standard gun that was special ordered with a higher grade wood (versus plain walnut), the notation in the ledger records was usually (but not always) “Fancy stock” or “X Stock”. I have never encountered a notation of “XX” or “XXX” in the Single Shot ledger records.
Bert
thank you all very much for your help, you’re all incredibly knowledgeable. I’m only 20 years old and I’ve been collecting and learning as much as I can about early winchesters for about 5 years now. I have a lot to learn so I’ve been studying as much as I can. You guys are great, thanks again!
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