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Winder Muskets
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December 24, 2023 - 12:23 am
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Bert, what do you think?

2 of these came into the shop recently.  The one appears to be modified?  Both have the Military stamps.  One of the stocks looks replaced.  I can get the serial numbers next week if you wish. 

 

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December 24, 2023 - 12:35 am
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The top Winder in the second picture has definitely been altered, as it has a replacement breech block.

One of the guns was a cut down (shortened) forend stock, and the other appears to have a replacement forend stock (from a 2nd variation Winder Musket).

Please get the serial numbers for each, and check them both for the “U S” and ordnance bomb stamps behind the hammer.

Bert

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December 24, 2023 - 2:45 am
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Bert H. said
The top Winder in the second picture has definitely been altered, as it has a replacement breech block. 

I like the early low-walls with “high-wall” blocks, but not this; why in the world would someone do this?  Most HW blocks are CF, so was this one altered to RF?  If these could be bought for what that actually are, not what they pretend to be, they might be worth considering.

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December 24, 2023 - 5:47 am
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Bert H. said
The top Winder in the second picture has definitely been altered, as it has a replacement breech block.

One of the guns was a cut down (shortened) forend stock, and the other appears to have a replacement forend stock (from a 2nd variation Winder Musket).

Please get the serial numbers for each, and check them both for the “U S” and ordnance bomb stamps behind the hammer.

Bert

  

Both have the ordinance marks.  One is 120???.  The other is 130???.  Both barrels say 22 short.  The previous owner tagged these guns.  The one with the original block has a tag that says 22 Magnum.  The other says 22 Short.  I kind of think the tags got swapped over the years and the magnum is the one that the block has been changed?

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December 24, 2023 - 5:54 am
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clarence said

Bert H. said

The top Winder in the second picture has definitely been altered, as it has a replacement breech block. 

I like the early low-walls with “high-wall” blocks, but not this; why in the world would someone do this?  Most HW blocks are CF, so was this one altered to RF?  If these could be bought for what that actually are, not what they pretend to be, they might be worth considering.

  

Clarence, Jeff ,the shop owner, got in a collection with other modified guns too.  Like 2 Model 95 carbines with a lot of original blue.  One is in 303 British.  This one the rear sight has been removed and 2 screws inserted.  But, a receiver sight has been added.  The second gun has the same rear barrel sight removed but a Kings bolt peep added on top of the bolt. 

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December 24, 2023 - 5:58 am
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On a different note.  Jeff also got a turn of the century 1894 in 38-55 with a Browning Bros Ogden Ut stamp.  Octagon barrel, full mag, crescent butt.  Seen some use but appears unmolested..

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December 24, 2023 - 5:59 am
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Chuck,

With rare exception, the U S ordnance marked Winder Muskets were all in the 120000 – 138000 serial range.  While possible, it would not be practical to convert a 22 Short barrel to a 22 Magnum.  The rifling twist rate for the 22 Short was 1:20. The 22 Win Mag RF rifling twist rate is 1:14.

If you can, get a closer look at both.  The critical piece of information for my survey is the serial number and ordnance marking.

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December 24, 2023 - 6:05 am
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I’m sure I can get what you want next Saturday. 

Big Edit:  If I can remember.  

The Winders, 95’s and the 1894 are all in his February auction.

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December 24, 2023 - 2:45 pm
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Chuck said
The Winders, 95’s and the 1894 are all in his February auction. 

Which means the Winders will probably sell for twice their worth, as opposed to their parts-gun values.   

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December 24, 2023 - 5:32 pm
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clarence said

Chuck said

The Winders, 95’s and the 1894 are all in his February auction. 

Which means the Winders will probably sell for twice their worth, as opposed to their parts-gun values.   

  

Clarence-

What do you think they’ll sell for? Quite honestly neither interest me but I enjoy shooting my Winder. I suppose they could be amusing plinkers or backyard pest control.

 

Mike

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December 24, 2023 - 6:19 pm
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TXGunNut said
What do you think they’ll sell for? Quite honestly neither interest me but I enjoy shooting my Winder. I suppose they could be amusing plinkers or backyard pest control. 

Suspect it will not be a lot less than one in original cond would bring…unless auctioneer is considerate enough to point out the “improvements”; don’t think that’s too likely!  (Unless Chuck stands up & calls him out!)  I’d be curious how the .22 Mag actually shoots, but doubt a test target will be provided. 

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December 24, 2023 - 6:52 pm
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

What do you think they’ll sell for? Quite honestly neither interest me but I enjoy shooting my Winder. I suppose they could be amusing plinkers or backyard pest control. 

Suspect it will not be a lot less than one in original cond would bring…unless auctioneer is considerate enough to point out the “improvements”; don’t think that’s too likely!  (Unless Chuck stands up & calls him out!)  I’d be curious how the .22 Mag actually shoots, but doubt a test target will be provided. 

  

Clarence,  I am not getting into arguments with all the dealers I know that end up with bad guns to sell.  When they buy a collection they get what they get.  Take it all or take none.  I pointed out what I saw so others here know what’s going on.  I have said for years, don’t buy guns you haven’t actually picked up and looked at.  If buyers have not done their homework and they buy a bad gun whose fault is it?

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December 24, 2023 - 6:53 pm
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

What do you think they’ll sell for? Quite honestly neither interest me but I enjoy shooting my Winder. I suppose they could be amusing plinkers or backyard pest control. 

Suspect it will not be a lot less than one in original cond would bring…unless auctioneer is considerate enough to point out the “improvements”; don’t think that’s too likely!  (Unless Chuck stands up & calls him out!)  I’d be curious how the .22 Mag actually shoots, but doubt a test target will be provided. 

  

The “improvements” on the one musket are actually well done, IMHO. I’m not too concerned with the “wrong” twist rate for the 22 Mag, I noticed awhile back my shooting buddy’s 22LR Winder Musket shoots about as well as my 22 Short but both rifles’ bores are probably several thousand rounds past their prime. 
Last time I checked an original Winder wasn’t particularly hard to find or expensive. Not much interest in them among the trendy collectors; just not fancy enough for them, I guess. Maybe someday I’ll luck into one with a really nice bore.

 

Mike

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December 24, 2023 - 6:56 pm
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One thing for sure, the pictures will show the mods. 

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December 24, 2023 - 6:59 pm
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Mike,

An original 3rd variation “U S” ordnance marked Winder Musket that is in decent (unaltered) condition is a $2K+ gun these days.  Consider that it is not just the “Winchester” collectors that are looking for them, as the “Military” collectors also compete for them.

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December 24, 2023 - 7:04 pm
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Bert H. said
 

Consider that it is not just the “Winchester” collectors that are looking for them, as the “Military” collectors also compete for them.
Bert

  

And those 2 reasons are why the one I bought fits nicely into my collection. But was lucky to pay less than half of Bert’s current valuation.

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December 24, 2023 - 7:16 pm
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Chuck said

Bert H. said

 

Consider that it is not just the “Winchester” collectors that are looking for them, as the “Military” collectors also compete for them.

Bert

  

And those 2 reasons are why the one I bought fits nicely into my collection. But was lucky to pay less than half of Bert’s current valuation.

  

It used to be quite common to find them in the $1,000 to $1,200 range, but not anymore!  I bought one at the Big Reno show 17-years ago that is a 95%+ condition specimen for just $1,200.  Today, I could sell it for 2X what I paid for it.

Bert

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December 24, 2023 - 7:28 pm
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The “improvements” on the one musket are actually well done, IMHO. I’m not too concerned with the “wrong” twist rate for the 22 Mag, I noticed awhile back my shooting buddy’s 22LR Winder Musket shoots about as well as my 22 Short but both rifles’ bores are probably several thousand rounds past their prime. 

TXGunNut said  

The .22 Long guns I’ve had (all SSs) shoot LR as well as could be expected without scopes or perfect bores, so the slower than standard twist was NOT a noticeable detriment.  .22 Mag fired with a Short twist might be “a bridge too far,” but only shooting, not theory, would settle the question.  I recommend that Chuck buy it & settle the question once for all!

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December 24, 2023 - 7:31 pm
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Bert, what is up with the two different forends around the band area?  I mean the bottom one has the piece of metal in the wood.

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December 24, 2023 - 7:41 pm
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Bert H. said
Mike,

An original 3rd variation “U S” ordnance marked Winder Musket that is in decent (unaltered) condition is a $2K+ gun these days.  Consider that it is not just the “Winchester” collectors that are looking for them, as the “Military” collectors also compete for them.

Bert

  

Bert-

My “US” 3rd variation doesn’t quite make the 80% cut because of bluing loss on the receiver but is original. The Cabela’s in Centerville, OH had it for $850 in early 2018 and they were nice enough to box it up and ship it to me. For some reason I thought they could still be had for $1500 or less, interest may be a little less around these parts. Apparently I should keep a lookout for underpriced specimens and bring them up to Cody where they are more appreciated.

 

Mike

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