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A friend is trying to obtain some sort of proof that these pistols are in fact Curios & Relics. These pistols were manufactured around 1919. I believe that the Gun Report did an article on them. I have seen some Winchester drawings but can’t find them.
Chuck,
You will need to go to the BATF website and look in their listing of Curio & Relic firearms. It is my understanding that Winchester only made a handful of them, and none were serialized.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck said
A friend is trying to obtain some sort of proof that these pistols are in fact Curios & Relics. These pistols were manufactured around 1919. I believe that the Gun Report did an article on them. I have seen some Winchester drawings but can’t find them.
I happen to have the latest BATF C&R list handy. I don’t see your pistol with a quick text search, but feel free to take a look (pdf attached).
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
If you can prove it is older than 50 years then it automatically qualifies as C&R. Herb Houze’s description in his book and his article on the G20P should just about clinch the age question.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
supergimp said
I happen to have the latest BATF C&R list handy. I don’t see your pistol with a quick text search, but feel free to take a look (pdf attached).
Steve
Steve,
They may be listed as a “Model 1902”.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
JWA said
If you can prove it is older than 50 years then it automatically qualifies as C&R. Herb Houze’s description in his book and his article on the G20P should just about clinch the age question.
Best Regards,
Jeff,
Because it is a cut down Model 02 rifle, it may not be that simple. You have to prove that Winchester manufactured it as such, and I have seen at least a handful of “faked” specimens.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Jeff,
Because it is a cut down Model 02 rifle, it may not be that simple. You have to prove that Winchester manufactured it as such, and I have seen at least a handful of “faked” specimens.
That is true, replicas or fakes would not qualify. Now I see the actual hard part of Chuck’s question is how to determine if it is an “original” G20P and that may prove to be impossible to verify if the replica/fake/lunchbox gun was done well. The C&R list or anything else will not answer that question.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Bert H. said
Steve,
They may be listed as a “Model 1902”.
Ah yea I just did a quick keyword search of the pdf, but figured I’d post the pdf for Chuck to look himself (happened to have it on my desktop).
Looking for 1902 reveals this on page 65:
Winchester, 1902, pistol made from a rifle, cal. .22, produced at factory, having no S/N, but having a decorated stock and accompanied by documents denoting its use by Mr. Ned Tupperwein.
Which looks like an individual piece. Didn’t see any other 1902 pistols but the pdf is there in my previous post for anyone who wants to take a look. Note that the BATF only issues a new list when there are updates. This one is dated 2018 but the website indicates “reviewed 2020” and I just downloaded it the other day (looking for something else myself).
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
Thanks all. The person that is asking for help actually works for an auction house and is their in house specialist on these matters. There are a lot of articles written and even some letters written by Madis. Some of these guns do in fact have serial numbers. Some over 100. No one knows exactly how many were made. What he is looking for is something more official, like documents from Winchester. All indications are that these guns were made about the time of WWI. I think that the Gun Report magazine shows a Winchester diagram of the Model. Some do call it a Model 1902 but it was called the Model 20 by Winchester. I think people were confused by the barrel address of the 1902 boys rifle barrels that were used. I believe that one of these was show by Winchester in a 1919 exposition?
Chuck,
Until this topic was posted, I had not ever heard them referred to as a “Model 20”. I find it very odd that Winchester would have applied a “Model” designation to a firearm that never went into production, and with the same designation that they used for a spiffy Single Shot .410 bore shotgun. The Model 20 .410 bore shotgun was introduced in March 1919.
Thomas Henshaw mentions (and pictures) a Model 1902 Pistol in his reference book. Otherwise, there is no other mention of this Pistol (or model) in any of the official Winchester reference documents that I have in my library. Of the half-dozen or so that I have seen in the past 40-years, not a single one of them was exactly the same (e.g. barrel length, stock/grip shape, front sights, etc.), which leads me to the conclusion that they were all “made up creations” by someone wanting to fool a potential buyer.
My recommendation to the unnamed auction house would be to proceed with the utmost caution… get it cleared by the BATF before offering it up for sale.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Until this topic was posted, I had not ever heard them referred to as a “Model 20”. I find it very odd that Winchester would have applied a “Model” designation to a firearm that never went into production, and with the same designation that they used for a spiffy Single Shot .410 bore shotgun. The Model 20 .410 bore shotgun was introduced in March 1919.
Hi Bert,
I also find it odd that the model number “20” would be duplicated but it is Herbert Houze that refers to it as the “Proposed Model G20P” in his book “Winchester Repeating Arms Co. It’s History and Development from 1865 to 1981”, on pages 201 and 202. He shows a plate with the Winchester “design drawing” and also shows a cased set of the pistols in the inventory of the Cody Firearms Museum (inventory #’s P2067 and P2068). He also did a separate article on the G20P.
I agree that there is no hard evidence to support the manufacture of more pistols after the first initial samples which were displayed at the 1919 Caldwell Match (alongside the new Model 52).
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Jeff,
Thanks for the reference… I will have to grab my copy and look it up.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Jeff,
Thanks for the reference… I will have to grab my copy and look it up.
Houze also mentions the G20P briefly in the Spring 2006 Winchester Collector article on Winchester Revolvers.
I have not seen the Gun Report article but would love to read it if someone knows what issue it is in?
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Here are the Winchester drawings for the 1919 pistol prototypes. These drawings seem to match the boxed set of pistols at Cody.
Chuck, are these the drawings you remember seeing? They are at Cody and are now part of the digital collection.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Bert H. said
Chuck,
Until this topic was posted, I had not ever heard them referred to as a “Model 20”. I find it very odd that Winchester would have applied a “Model” designation to a firearm that never went into production, and with the same designation that they used for a spiffy Single Shot .410 bore shotgun. The Model 20 .410 bore shotgun was introduced in March 1919.
My recommendation to the unnamed auction house would be to proceed with the utmost caution… get it cleared by the BATF before offering it up for sale.
Bert
I’ll post some pictures from Herbert Houze book, Winchester Repeating Arms Co. It’s History and Development from 1865 to 1981. If you have this book look at pages 201 and 202. Guns International has one listed for sale with a buy it now price of $3,100. Another one sold at RIA 12/7/19. Included were some paperwork from Madis. https://www.merzantiques.com/product/w2614-experimental-winchester-pistol-in-caliber-22/
The reason for my original post was to help getting this gun cleared before it is offered for sale.
Here is a picture and page 1 of an article that Houze wrote in The Gun Report Magazine.
See Madis book page 566 too.
Chuck said
Here is a picture and page 1 of an article that Houze wrote in The Gun Report Magazine.See Madis book page 566 too.
Chuck,
Do you have a month/year for the Gun Report article?
Thanks,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
Chuck,
Do you have a month/year for the Gun Report article?
Thanks,
I will look again. I thought it was early 1973 but I can’t prove that.
Awesome, thanks Chuck, I appreciate it!
Jeff
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Does anyone speak French?
https://winchester-lsg.forumotion.com/t396-pistolet-model-20-qui-parmi-nous-tous-en-a-touche-un
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