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Chuck said
TXGunNut said
I’ve never understood the collectors of antique only guns. The date was arbitrarily chosen, there is no discernible difference between a gun built in 1898 and 1899. I don’t mind filling out a 4473 or sending a copy of my C&R to purchase a firearm but I guess that could make a difference to some folks.
Mike
In states like Kalifornia there are a list of reasons why it is better to legally own antiques. One new law they are trying to pass is to tax each gun every year. My antiques are not on their list.
I believe you meant to say “Commiefornia”. With a 73-Billion budget deficit, your buddy Newsome will soon be taxing everything they can dream up… and at least half of the people will vote for it thinking that it is a good idea!
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck, You have my sympathy. The real drawback is if it works in CA then the good folks in Springfield (IL) will try it too! Tim
tim tomlinson said
Chuck, You have my sympathy. The real drawback is if it works in CA then the good folks in Springfield (IL) will try it too! Tim
First, why do you refer to them as “the good folks” ?? And not just IL… WA, OR, NY, MA, and the list goes on. 
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chuck said
I’m sure you know Tim was being facetious. It’s a nation wide problem.
I never pass up the opportunity to poke my friend Tim (a.k.a. “Fruit”) with a sharp stick! 
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
If you don’t like how things are, push a lot of red buttons at the polls in November. Trouble is, where I live, in 2020, support by the general population had to be at least 20:1 in favor of 45 vs 46, and 45 carried the state soundly until mail in votes were counted. Which tells me the powers that he can do whatever they want.
Having said that, push that red button and hope for the best. It’s like playing with a stick of dynamite as the results aren’t always as expo.
Chuck said
In states like
KaliforniaKommiefornia there are a list of reasons why it is better to legally own antiques. One new law they are trying to pass is to tax each gun every year. My antiques are not on their list.
Fixed your spelling for you, Chuck. (Seriously though, that sucks.)
EDIT: HA, I see Bert already fixed it! LOL
Bert H. said
Bill,If presented with the opportunity to purchase a pre-64 or a post-1963 production Model 94 in similar condition, which one of them would you pick up off the table and take home? That is truly the only question and answer that really matters (or is germane) to this ongoing discussion.
As you mention, there is no “harm” that will occur if someone chooses to collect post-63 (1964 – 1981) production Winchester firearms, or if someone chooses to explore and discuss them. In fact, I encourage you to do so. It is simply a fact that currently, the number of “interested” members is a very significant minority within the WACA organization. When & if that changes, I suspect the WACA will make that transition as well.
Bert
If the pre-64 Winchester Model 94 on the table were a “short wood” carbine made in early 1963 and the post-63 gun were a 1966 version of the Model 94 got up as “Model 66 Centennial” rifle with 24″ octagon barrel and brass-plated [maybe, yellow-colored anyway] furniture, I’d have taken the latter one home, assuming a good price. The late Tom Henshaw once told me that the limited run of the Centennial 94 rifle and carbine were the only guns that ever made a profit for the Winchester-Western gun department. Maybe he was being facetious.
The last run of pre-64 Model 94s turned out in 1963 — was it in August they retooled? — were made on very tired machinery and showed it. At least the ones I’ve seen. Of course, the “Centennial 66” was a rouged-up pig. In 1966 I handled them enough at McBride’s and Oshman’s to have an opinion. But one of them would hold enough interest for me to take it if the price were right. Really right. It would be sort of like owning a pet tarantula – ugly but interesting if only by comparison. Wouldn’t want more than one.
I’m not sure we really disagree on what can or should be done about the subject of post-63 Winchesters. Although someone earlier on this thread mentioned a permanent topic group, or whatever they’re called, I don’t think that’s necessary or even desirable. The only reason I can think of why any collector would want to build a complete group of guns made in New Haven from November 63 to the end of 1980 would be to memorialize the biggest commercial marketing disaster in the sporting gun business. However, the quality of the designs and production during that period was not homogenous and generally curved upward near the end. There are a very few pieces of gold among the piles of dross that some think are worthy of exploration. The 9422 seems to be a popular, interesting exception; the new Featherweight and its surprising caliber introductions; and the 320 rimfire, although it is not well known but was very sound and has a fascinating (to me) provenance. Lastly, the very low production, post ’63 Model 70 African, the stock work of which was outsourced to local artisans. Harry Selby got one, liked it and sold his Rigby.
But any of those few models are best dealt with just by creating a new topic in an appropriate group and then seeing who’s interested. Or not.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Bill,
The last pre-64 Model 94 was serial number 2600011, and it was manufactured April 29th, 1963. The retooling for the post-63 production Model 94 took nearly 9-months to complete.
Interestingly, serial numbers 2600010 and 2600011 (the last two pre-64 Model 94s) were special order guns as a pair. I feel confident that you would choose them over any post-63 Model 94 ever manufactured.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Bill,The last pre-64 Model 94 was serial number 2600011, and it was manufactured April 29th, 1963. The retooling for the post-63 production Model 94 took nearly 9-months to complete.
Interestingly, serial numbers 2600010 and 2600011 (the last two pre-64 Model 94s) were special order guns as a pair. I feel confident that you would choose them over any post-63 Model 94 ever manufactured.
Bert
Of course. And it’s better to be rich and healthy than it is to be sick and poor, too. At a guess, that pair of unicorns was ordered by a Winchester executive far enough up the flagpole to get it done or perhaps a board member or a Friend of John’s. You would know.
It comforts me that they exist and I hope they are in private hands. I’d admire them even more if I knew WRA honored the order because the. customer was Joe Doaks from Dubuque who dangled enough dollars in front of the Custom Shop. Now that would be the Winchester Repeating Arms we like to remember.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Well I for one enjoyed collecting the post ’63 Winchesters , I had one mod. ’94 of each year from ser#601 mfg. 1894, up to ser#2,598,354 mfg. 2006, and double of some years in various configurations, some of them are hard to find, plus I had 450 some Commemoratives. I got out of these mainly because they got to difficult and expensive, for Me to purchase in the U.S., being a non -resident. There aren’t many Winchester that’s more handsome , in My opinion, than a mod. ’94 1 fo 1000 or a U.s Constitution, or the Statue of Liberty or a cased Calgary Stampede. Talk about collectability, Try buying one of these today. Some of the early years after transition, ’60’s and early ’70’s the guns were pretty shoddy but hey got Their act together and made some pretty decent guns in the ’80’s and ’90’s. These guns , post ’63 are out there in, various condition , and are very much collectable to some of Us.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said Some of the early years after transition, ’60’s and early ’70’s the guns were pretty shoddy but hey got Their act together and made some pretty decent guns in the ’80’s and ’90’s.
That period you’re referring to when they were “pretty shoddy” occurred while the company was still part of Olin! And most of the “pretty decent” ones were USRA production.
Henry Mero said
Well I for one enjoyed collecting the post ’63 Winchesters , I had one mod. ’94 of each year from ser#601 mfg. 1894, up to ser#2,598,354 mfg. 2006, and double of some years in various configurations, some of them are hard to find, plus I had 450 some Commemoratives. I got out of these mainly because they got to difficult and expensive, for Me to purchase in the U.S., being a non -resident. There aren’t many Winchester that’s more handsome , in My opinion, than a mod. ’94 1 fo 1000 or a U.s Constitution, or the Statue of Liberty or a cased Calgary Stampede. Talk about collectability, Try buying one of these today. Some of the early years after transition, ’60’s and early ’70’s the guns were pretty shoddy but hey got Their act together and made some pretty decent guns in the ’80’s and ’90’s. These guns , post ’63 are out there in, various condition , and are very much collectable to some of Us.
Agreed, I have a few as well (not like you apparently do/did 👀) and I like them. Looking for some of those rarer ones will be just as fun, and some of them I have absolutely no interest in. I don’t know if some other group or association feeds that passion like we do pre-64s here, but it’s too bad they’re not a part of ours. Henry Mero, are you the expert sub-forum moderator we would need? 😉
Henry Mero said
Well I for one enjoyed collecting the post ’63 Winchesters , I had one mod. ’94 of each year from ser#601 mfg. 1894, up to ser#2,598,354 mfg. 2006, and double of some years in various configurations, some of them are hard to find, plus I had 450 some Commemoratives. I got out of these mainly because they got to difficult and expensive, for Me to purchase in the U.S., being a non -resident. There aren’t many Winchester that’s more handsome , in My opinion, than a mod. ’94 1 fo 1000 or a U.s Constitution, or the Statue of Liberty or a cased Calgary Stampede. Talk about collectability, Try buying one of these today. Some of the early years after transition, ’60’s and early ’70’s the guns were pretty shoddy but hey got Their act together and made some pretty decent guns in the ’80’s and ’90’s. These guns , post ’63 are out there in, various condition , and are very much collectable to some of Us.
Well, Henry, I’m glad to see another Stranger in a Strange Land. My Canadian friends have all been heretical Scots, quiet but stubborn and could drink you under the table.
But you’re treading dangerous ground when you bring up pieces made in the Nineties. The filthy Flems…
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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There are a few exceptions to my post-63 prejudice, among them the 9422’s and the commemoratives. Of course many commemoratives are 9422’s. I personally have no use for commemoratives but there’s no denying they have a dedicated following. I’ve had a couple very nice 9422’s on my table for a few shows with very little serious interest so I may be wrong about them.
I hope to see the day when more of the post-63’s attract serious collector interest as I believe that will attract younger collectors. For me it’s more than the guns; the interesting characters of Winchester, Henry, Browning, Bennett, Mason, Johnson, Pugsley, Uhlrich et al have few rivals in the modern days of Winchester. Olin was a bit colorful but IIRC he liked the old classics, just like we do. For me the modern guns will never have the character or collectibility of the pre-64 Winchesters and there are millions of collectible Winchesters out there, we just have to find them. Maybe that’s the attraction of the big auction houses, a few keystrokes and a sizable electronic funds transfer and you’re a “Winchester collector”. In my mind the true collector has paid his dues toting guns in and out of countless gun shows, haunted mom & pop gun shops (remember those?), pawn shops, estate sales and flea markets to assemble his collection and has done his homework learning about the guns and accessories he collects. How many members of the younger generations are willing to do that? A fledgling collector may get “bitten” buying a “collectible” gun online and get discouraged and give up on the whole idea. The greedy or unscrupulous online sellers certainly take the fun out of it for too many people who don’t know what they’re buying.
Education of the aspiring collectors is the key to the future of our hobby, first thing we need to teach them is that not all knowledge comes from a Google or Wikipedia search. Most useful knowledge about Winchesters comes from reading books, handling lots of Winchesters and talking to knowledgeable collectors. Many of those books are out of print and a growing number of knowledgeable collectors are no longer able to attend shows. Judging from what little I know about these younger generations it’s not going to be easy.
Mike
Zebulon said
Bert H. said
Bill,
The last pre-64 Model 94 was serial number 2600011, and it was manufactured April 29th, 1963. The retooling for the post-63 production Model 94 took nearly 9-months to complete.
Interestingly, serial numbers 2600010 and 2600011 (the last two pre-64 Model 94s) were special order guns as a pair. I feel confident that you would choose them over any post-63 Model 94 ever manufactured.
Bert
Of course. And it’s better to be rich and healthy than it is to be sick and poor, too. At a guess, that pair of unicorns was ordered by a Winchester executive far enough up the flagpole to get it done or perhaps a board member or a Friend of John’s. You would know.
It comforts me that they exist and I hope they are in private hands. I’d admire them even more if I knew WRA honored the order because the. customer was Joe Doaks from Dubuque who dangled enough dollars in front of the Custom Shop. Now that would be the Winchester Repeating Arms we like to remember.
Bill,
They have been in private hands since 1963. They were not ordered by anyone in the Olin corporation or by anyone of note. They were in a private order that was shipped to the “Blish Mize & Sillman HDWE Co” Box 401 Atchison, KS. One of our long-time WACA members owned them for many years before selling them via Rock Island Auction.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Mike, we have almost identical views of what collecting should be about. I emphatically agree it is much more interesting than just mechanical objects in a vacuum.
I can’t remember who wrote it but an experienced collector has argued that a single gun, if studied and researched and presented appropriately, could be a notable collection.
There have always been “instant connoisseurs” in the arts, just like some instant big game hunters who’ve won the Weatherby Trophy.
Big Hitter Picasso collectors get stung hard by the spiritual cousins of the late Larry Wilson with dismal regularity.
You or I wouldn’t buy the genuine Walker Colt that, provably by affidavit, was found clutched in the dead hands of its namesake by the Comanche ancestor of the seller. Why not? Because the time and effort for either of us to accumulate that kind of money would have made us very, very cautious.
Serious, satisfying collecting requires the commitment of intellectual time and effort plus some money, in perhaps inverse proportions for most of us, although there are stellar collections assembled by men of means who are also respected scholars in their field.
It’s a big tent with a few rats in it.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Bert H. said
Zebulon said
Bert H. said
Bill,
The last pre-64 Model 94 was serial number 2600011, and it was manufactured April 29th, 1963. The retooling for the post-63 production Model 94 took nearly 9-months to complete.
Interestingly, serial numbers 2600010 and 2600011 (the last two pre-64 Model 94s) were special order guns as a pair. I feel confident that you would choose them over any post-63 Model 94 ever manufactured.
Bert
Of course. And it’s better to be rich and healthy than it is to be sick and poor, too. At a guess, that pair of unicorns was ordered by a Winchester executive far enough up the flagpole to get it done or perhaps a board member or a Friend of John’s. You would know.
It comforts me that they exist and I hope they are in private hands. I’d admire them even more if I knew WRA honored the order because the. customer was Joe Doaks from Dubuque who dangled enough dollars in front of the Custom Shop. Now that would be the Winchester Repeating Arms we like to remember.
Bill,
They have been in private hands since 1963. They were not ordered by anyone in the Olin corporation or by anyone of note. They were in a private order that was shipped to the “Blish Mize & Sillman HDWE Co” Box 401 Atchison, KS. One of our long-time WACA members owned them for many years before selling them via Rock Island Auction.
Bert
Then my happiness is complete.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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