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I’m not sure if this is a Merz thing but I’ve seen these lines on several other guns I’ve owned(92’s) and these Merz model 55 takedowns. Any thoughts?
Rick C
Rick; I’ve got 3 mod. ’94’s with those “allignment” marks, factory or not they are practical and have been discussed here.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
Rick; I’ve got 3 mod. ’94’s with those “allignment” marks, factory or not they are practical and have been discussed here.
Henry some of these lines are stamped very clean making one think they’re factory but I can’t find anywhere that Winchester did that.
They wouldn’t deter me from a purchase or put less value on a takedown with them for me.
Rick C
Model 12’s have factory stamped arrows that function as witness marks
If you can’t convince them, confuse them
Rick C said
Henry Mero said
Rick; I’ve got 3 mod. ’94’s with those “allignment” marks, factory or not they are practical and have been discussed here.
Henry some of these lines are stamped very clean making one think they’re factory but I can’t find anywhere that Winchester did that.
They wouldn’t deter me from a purchase or put less value on a takedown with them.
I too have seen a fair number of Take Down Winchester rifles with those alignment marks, but I am not of the opinion that they were factory marked. The vast majority of the Take Down rifles are found without them.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Who in their right mind would scratch a mark like that on a take down rifle?
With regards to Bert’s comment, it makes sense, not being a factory mark, as it surely doesn’t appear to me to be, in Rick’s pictures above.
I can’t imagine Merz doing that either, but I’m not speaking for them, or even defending them, as in today’s world, nothing surprises me. With his establishment getting their hands on that many firearms, who knows.
I never had a problem putting a take down rifle back together cautiously, and gently.
Anthony
Anthony here is another one I found on a 92. The model 55 takedown I acquired from Merz also has these marks and were identical on both sides and looked factory. 🤷🏻
Rick C
I posted this picture awhile back. 1886 50 Express with the “Witness” stamp. It was sent to Abercrombie and Fitch for modifications before going to Africa on safari 1n 1907. Perhaps they made the “witness marks”? RDB
rogertherelic said
I posted this picture awhile back. 1886 50 Express with the “Witness” stamp. It was sent to Abercrombie and Fitch for modifications before going to Africa on safari 1n 1907. Perhaps they made the “witness marks”? RDB
Interesting Roger.
My thoughts lead me to believe there’s just too many guns with the same marks not to be factory but I haven’t yet found anything in my book library to convince me 100% yet.🤷🏻
Rick C
Rick C said
rogertherelic said
I posted this picture awhile back. 1886 50 Express with the “Witness” stamp. It was sent to Abercrombie and Fitch for modifications before going to Africa on safari 1n 1907. Perhaps they made the “witness marks”? RDB
Interesting Roger.
My thoughts lead me to believe there’s just too many guns with the same marks not to be factory but I haven’t yet found anything in my book library to convince me. 🤷🏻
I have a model 53 with witness marks on it. They are faint, but they are there!
As I look at the pictures closely, it appears that the one that Roger is showing, was put there by a small straight chisel of some kind. IMO!
The other witness marks appear to me to be made with a scratch awl! IMO!
I would think if Winchester did it in fact, we would see the Mark put on with a roll type of die, showing the so called square corners on the edges.
Anthony
Anthony, I totally understand where you’re coming from but, I’ve now corresponded with several other collectors and a couple WACA members outside this post. They have reported the same marks on several of their takedowns. I really don’t know what to make of it, but I’m leaning towards factory.
I’m not sure if they were able to just lightly strike the takedowns in the process of production needed for a reason but, maybe Mark Douglas or Bert or others can shed more positive light or confirmation. I have owned dozens of takedowns and seen the same mark several times, but I am no expert or pretend to be. In my opinion, there’s just too many with the mark to disregard it as factory at this point. Jmo 🤷🏻
Rick C
Edward Kitner said
I am asking myself, why!
I assume you’re asking why it is marked as such. I suppose one would mark it to have the correct alignment, as you can over tighten it during reassembly. Also with wear being a factor, if you were to over extend the screws that adjust for wear, you could over adjust them and also not have proper alignment. With some use, handling over time the take down feature can become lose and not be as tight as it should be when reassembled.
Just my humble thoughts on the matter.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Edward Kitner said
Rick C said
rogertherelic said
I posted this picture awhile back. 1886 50 Express with the “Witness” stamp. It was sent to Abercrombie and Fitch for modifications before going to Africa on safari 1n 1907. Perhaps they made the “witness marks”? RDB
Interesting Roger.
My thoughts lead me to believe there’s just too many guns with the same marks not to be factory but I haven’t yet found anything in my book library to convince me. 🤷🏻
I have a model 53 with witness marks on it. They are faint, but they are there!
Hi Edward, thanks for posting. They may be faint, but still visible and all these marks, crisp or faint, appear to be the exact same measurement. Just sayin!
Rick C
win86guns said
Hi Rick,I have 5 92’s above 417XXX that have the same marks.
Hi win86guns,
Thanks for sharing. I am of the belief at this point they’re factory in the assembly process.
Rick C
Rick C said
Edward Kitner said
Rick C said
rogertherelic said
I posted this picture awhile back. 1886 50 Express with the “Witness” stamp. It was sent to Abercrombie and Fitch for modifications before going to Africa on safari 1n 1907. Perhaps they made the “witness marks”? RDB
Interesting Roger.
My thoughts lead me to believe there’s just too many guns with the same marks not to be factory but I haven’t yet found anything in my book library to convince me. 🤷🏻
I have a model 53 with witness marks on it. They are faint, but they are there!
Hi Edward, thanks for posting. They may be faint, but still visible and all these marks, crisp or faint, appear to be the exact same measurement. Just sayin!
Rick C
November 7, 2015
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Maverick said
Edward Kitner said
I am asking myself, why!
I assume you’re asking why it is marked as such. I suppose one would mark it to have the correct alignment, as you can over tighten it during reassembly. Also with wear being a factor, if you were to over extend the screws that adjust for wear, you could over adjust them and also not have proper alignment. With some use, handling over time the take down feature can become lose and not be as tight as it should be when reassembled.
Just my humble thoughts on the matter.
Sincerely,
Maverick
I can see how they would be useful as a baseline/diagnostic tool for a rifle that saw lots of use or was taken down regularly. Is it possible this was done after a takedown rifle was adjusted for wear? The few takedowns I’ve owned did not have the marks…but were very tight suggesting they were seldom if ever taken down. There does seem to be a remarkable consistency about a number of the markings.
Mike
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