Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Stolen Winchesters
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
May 2, 2015 - 12:37 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

 The following 3 Winchesters were stolen in a burglary of my home on 16 December 1986 in Loudoun County, Virginia. I’m still looking for them, and am offering a reward of $500 each for information leading to the recovery of these guns.

(1) Model 1873, 38 WCF, octagonal barrel, full magazine, Serial number 406081B

(2) Model 1892, 44 WCF, saddle-ring carbine, Serial number 989117

(3) Model 64 Standard Rifle, 30 WCF Serial number 1372911

All 3 of these guns have been entered into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) computer database.

The Loudoun County Sheriff’s Department case number is 107583.

You can contact me at [email protected]

Thank you for your assistance!

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 11096
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
May 2, 2015 - 1:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hello James,

Too bad you did not post this several years ago.  As it turns out, I most likely had my hands on your stolen Model 64.  It is entered in my research survey, but I do not know where or when I saw it or recorded it.  The good news, its that it is out there being circulated.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
May 2, 2015 - 5:51 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert,

Does CFM record issued letters & serial searches by serial numbers and person requested by ?

Bill

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 11096
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
May 2, 2015 - 7:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Blueliner said

Bert,

Does CFM record issued letters & serial searches by serial numbers and person requested by ?

Bill

I do not know if or how they track factory letters and serial number searches.  You need to ask Jessica Bennett this question.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
May 3, 2015 - 8:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks, Bert and BlueLiner!

I’ll give Ms. Bennett a call tomorrow and find out what she will need (i.e. a letter or email from my local Sheriff’s Department) to check their files for inquiries on any of my stolen guns.

Best regards,

Jim Morris

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4364
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
May 3, 2015 - 10:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I remember talking about stolen guns when Jessi was at the Tulsa show a number of years ago and she did say they did receive calls to keep a look out certain serial numbers often but she never said if they actually do anything about it.  In recent years after they went to computers to fill out phone searches and letters, it would be very simple to keep a record of each search and letter. When they use to hand write phone searches they just might have a copy  but it would be super time consuming to search them.

As a business stand point I would think it would have a negative impact on their business if it was known that anyone that calls or requests a letter is being checked against a list of stolen guns but on the other hand if you knew they had a list they might do more business if every time before a gun changed hands you called to make sure it wasn’t stolen. They would have to be open weekends to handle the gun show business.

What would be a persons recourse be if they did find they had a stolen gun? I know the cops would take it and after answering many question like where you got it you are out the money. The person you bought it from might stand behind it but if they don’t now you probable have to sue.  If the gun cost less than a few thousand it might cost you more to hire a attorney so you end up taking it on the chin.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
May 4, 2015 - 12:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bob…

Regarding your concern about what might happen if you find yourself “stuck” after buying a gun that turns out to have been stolen:

There’s an old saying in the law the “a thief can pass no title”. Basically, what this means is that a stolen item remains the property of the person from whom it was stolen, regardless of how many hands it has passed through.

If you buy a gun from me, and the gun turns out to have been stolen, then I am legally (and morally) obligated to repay you the money that you paid for the stolen gun. I’m sure that there are guys out there who would deny any liability in a case like that. I can hear them now: “I didn’t know it was stolen! You can’t blame me!”. Or “I never sold you that gun! You didn’t get it from me!”

An honorable man would refund your money. But we all know that there are some less-than-honorable members of the gun-collecting fraternity, and the sad fact is that a lawsuit would very likely be necessary to recover any money you lost.

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4364
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
May 4, 2015 - 12:54 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I would guess most gun deals at shows or even conducted at a persons residents there was no receipt made out, it was a hand shake after the money was counted unless they took a check. Without a valid receipt it would be tough to prove you got it from that person.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 356
Member Since:
April 14, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
May 4, 2015 - 3:03 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

After around 30 years, you are looking for a needle in a haystack. Those Winchesters were probably sold at a pawn shop. Unless the 1873 was a very special gun (one of a thousand) I would just move on. I hope you are using a good safe today.It is unfortunate today that one cannot display old firearms without the risk of theft.

Walter

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4364
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
May 4, 2015 - 3:32 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Walter,

Gun do circulate over time. I would imagine the thief sold them for 10 cents on the dollar and from there they work their way up the food chain from the dealer to the collector. Over time the collector will turn over guns either for upgrading or the collector getting old. If the guns were your average condition guns they will turn over more often. Now if they are high condition they will stay locked down longer.

I recall hearing about a guy checking gun shows and eventually found a gun that was stolen from him on a dealers table. He got his gun back and the dealer had to eat the cost. So it does happen.

Jim,

You didn’t mention the condition of the guns. Also I take it since your still looking for them they were not insured.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1645
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
May 4, 2015 - 3:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

Blueliner said

Bert,

Does CFM record issued letters & serial searches by serial numbers and person requested by ?

Bill

I do not know if or how they track factory letters and serial number searches.  You need to ask Jessica Bennett this question.

Bert

Why would it matter what CFM has searched and by whom? If I’m researching serial numbers in a sequence and one of those numbers has been reported stolen, what difference would me doing so make?

Maverick

Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
May 4, 2015 - 6:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick said

Bert H. said

Blueliner said

Bert,

Does CFM record issued letters & serial searches by serial numbers and person requested by ?

Bill

I do not know if or how they track factory letters and serial number searches.  You need to ask Jessica Bennett this question.

Bert

Why would it matter what CFM has searched and by whom? If I’m researching serial numbers in a sequence and one of those numbers has been reported stolen, what difference would me doing so make?

Maverick

For the purpose you stated, the answer is ” none “. For the person trying to retrieve a stolen gun, it would be just a tracking piece of information for use, if so chosen. As per the responses above, the effort is a mine field of conflicts. A real conundrum.

Bill

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
May 4, 2015 - 8:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

1873man said

Walter,

Gun do circulate over time. I would imagine the thief sold them for 10 cents on the dollar and from there they work their way up the food chain from the dealer to the collector. Over time the collector will turn over guns either for upgrading or the collector getting old. If the guns were your average condition guns they will turn over more often. Now if they are high condition they will stay locked down longer.

I recall hearing about a guy checking gun shows and eventually found a gun that was stolen from him on a dealers table. He got his gun back and the dealer had to eat the cost. So it does happen.

Jim,

You didn’t mention the condition of the guns. Also I take it since your still looking for them they were not insured.

Bob

Bob…

I find it interesting that you know of a guy who found one of his stolen guns at a gun show and was able to recover it. I carry a laminated card in my wallet, listing the description and serial numbers of my stolen Winchesters, as well as the sheriff’s department case number. There is always the thought in my mind…”One of these days, I’m going to find one of my guns on some dealer’s table…”

Regarding the condition of the guns: The 73 and the 92 were pretty nice guns, but nothing to write home about. The 73 had about 60 percent blue, with the rest being a blue-brown patina. The wood was nice, but nothing special. The 92 had the usual silver-colored receiver due to the blue flaking off, but the barrel and magazine tube were about 85 or 90% blue. The one thing about the gun that caused me to buy it is that the bore was mint, and the gun shot very well. The 64 was my wife’s father’s gun, and was about 98 or 99%, except for some buggered screws. Wood was excellent. This is the gun that Bert has in his list of Model 64s. He said that he may very well have handled it, so I’m guessing that it may be in the Pacific Northwest somewhere.

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4364
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
May 8, 2015 - 2:23 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jim,

Did you talk to Jessi yet?

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1645
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
May 8, 2015 - 2:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jim,

Have you checked with “Two-bit” to see if your 92 is in his survey? I don’t recall Two-bit’s real name at the moment, but I’m sure he wouldn’t mind looking for you.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
May 9, 2015 - 3:21 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick…

If I remember correctly, I contacted 2Bit through the Gun Values Board about a year ago. I might send him a quick email just to make sure.

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
May 10, 2015 - 12:09 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

1873man said

Jim,

Did you talk to Jessi yet?

Bob

Yes. She will need a request from law enforcement in order to check the letter files at the museum.

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4364
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
May 10, 2015 - 9:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Jim,

Will they keep checking as they do new searches and letter or is this just a one time deal?

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 31
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
May 12, 2015 - 9:10 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I don’t know. When I talked to the Detective at the Sheriff’s Office, I suggested that he put a request in his email for the CFM to keep the numbers on file. I haven’t seen his email, so I don’t know if he did that or not.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: win86guns, JWA, TR, 86Win, Ben, JComer, bryan fleck, Robert Drummond Jr, SureShot, Pwog
Guest(s) 122
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6637
TXGunNut: 5269
Chuck: 4733
steve004: 4401
1873man: 4364
Big Larry: 2380
twobit: 2326
mrcvs: 1803
TR: 1739
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 13035
Posts: 114006

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1820
Members: 9005
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation