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mfivefour said
What the time frame on the pictured scope?
STS: ’37 to ’78. TS introduced ’34, remained available until about 1940.
But before these Lymans were introduced, the target scopes that totally dominated the kind of competitive shooting this gun might have been used for were Feckers, first available in 1922. First Unertls produced ’34, using Lyman TS mounts.
November 5, 2014
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Hi M54-
You just might have something really rare there… 
What I was wondering about was the external diameter of the barrel at the muzzle. Is it 0.875″ by any chance? The reason I ask is that the standard M54 Target rifles (medium heavy straight taper barrels) had a front sight ramp, like the early M70 target rifle in the back in my poor quality photo above. Also M54 target rifles in .30 GOV’T’06 had 24″ barrels.
There was, however, a M54 called the “Sniper’s Match” rifle (predecessor to the M70 bull gun) that sported a 26″ EXTRA HEAVY barrel available only in .30 GOV’T’06. That one did not have a front sight ramp, just a dovetail at the muzzle for the front sight. Only produced from late ’35-36 and then only in very small numbers. If you think M54 target rifles are rare, try finding a M54 Sniper’s Match. Unless of course you already have one!!! Check out the distinction between the M54 Target Rifle and M54 Snipers Match in Rule’s book.
Thanks to Clarence for the TS and STS dates. As he says Fecker and Litschert were also earlier than the STS, but your M54 S/N makes it a ’34 or ’35 rifle so any of the above would work. Even an early STS or Unertl. Only thing with the STS and Unertls is that they were made the longest so most you see are ’50s or ’60s scopes. Finding a pre-war one is harder. The TS is not common, but at least you can be sure that any one you find will be period correct for your rifle. As Clarence says, the earliest Unertl’s used Lyman or Fecker mounts, since John Unertl initially was producing just the telescope in his shop, not the micrometer adjustable mounts. The pic I posted above of a Unertl small game/gallery scope on a M54 standard rifle shows the scope is in Lyman mounts, consistent with its low serial number.
All those pre-war scopes are 3/4″ diameter tube with 7/8″ diameter ocular bells, so any should work. The standard removable sighting disc (aperture) on a Lyman 48W receiver (peep) sight was 0.625″ diameter. If someone put a 1″ diameter disc on the sight (as target shooters commonly did) then it might run into the bottom of the scope tube. I’ve never had to remove a 0.625″ disc from a Lyman 48WH or WJS to allow for scope clearance on M70s.
There’s a seller on Ebay currently who has a bunch of Unertl scopes listed, some with apparently very low serial numbers. Seems to me the asking prices are a bit astronomical (maybe not if they’re really pre-war and excellent condition), but the listings are good for “window shopping” in any event.
Thanks for the info,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
…the earliest Unertl’s used Lyman or Fecker mounts, since John Unertl initially was producing just the telescope in his shop, not the micrometer adjustable mounts. The pic I posted above of a Unertl small game/gallery scope on a M54 standard rifle shows the scope is in Lyman mounts, consistent with its low serial number.
Unertls may be found in Fecker mounts, but it’s unlikely John put them there, as his separation from Fecker’s company was evidently not an amicable one. Fecker likewise sold his earliest scopes in other maker’s mounts (Win. & Stevens), because it was not before 1925 that he began the mfg. of his own patented mounts.
At least one very high-numbered Unertl in Lyman mounts exists! Because when I ordered the scope in the ’80s, I also provided Lyman STS mounts for it to be mounted in–because aluminum offends my delicate sensibilities. (Point of sending in mounts rather than attaching them myself was to obtain an invoice verifying that the scope departed Unertl in that configuration.)
Lou, have you seen the M54 at the following link? Either way, what do you think of it?
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/m54sniper/
James
November 5, 2014
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Hi Clarence-
Too funny… Your “delicate sensibilities”…. 
Thanks for the clarification above. I recall once reading something (maybe written by you?) about John Unertl’s not altogether cordial “relationship” with his former employer but I am getting too senile to recall the details.
Hi James-
Yes. I saw that post. The distinction is between the M54 “Sniper’s Rifle” and “Sniper’s Match” rifle. Don’t blame me, I didn’t name them!!!
The linked post shows a “Sniper’s Rifle”, characterized by a 26″ extra heavy barrel with blade front sigh in a barrel band and a stock that looks like the early M52s. Those are super rare – check Lloyd Thomsen’s “The Forgotten 54” article in the WACA magazine archives. While they were cataloged, it’s doubtful any of them were ever made for commercial sale. I’ve read that the design arose from an unsuccessful effort by Winchester to secure a government contract for sniper rifles. True or not, anything I’ve ever run across claimed there were maybe only four or fewer of them known.
I suspect that mfiftyfour’s rifle is a M54 “Sniper’s Match” rifle, which was in effect the M54 version of what became the M70 bull gun. .30 GOV’T’06 only, 26″ extra heavy barrel (same taper as the 28″ M70 bull gun barrel), with dovetail for front sight. The M54 target rifles had medium heavy straight taper barrels with integral front sight ramps. As the “Sniper’s Match” rifle was made only from late ’35 through ’36, it too is a rare rifle, just not as rare as the “Sniper’s Rifle”…
At least that’s what I think I remember…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, you are correct it is a SM. The barrel measurement at the muzzle is approx. .885. The measurement of the barrel at the tip of the stock is 1.102. The peep sight diameter is .630.
Clarence and Lou, thank you for all of the information. Really appreciate it. Have been reading about SM’s and it is missing the front sight inserts and no sling. Not sure if sling should have Albree keeper. Also looked at those scopes on Ebay, Wow! Expensive. Found a site that sells them as well and the prices are much more reasonable.
Is there any way to date the Lyman scope and/or box?
November 5, 2014
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M54-
NICE!!! That’s a very collectable M54 you have there. Quite valuable. I’d encourage you not to do anything that would irreversibly alter it as there are very few others like it.
Regarding slings, Jeff (JWA) posted some information on pre-war Winchester slings in the thread:
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/correct-sling-for-pre-war-m70-target-rifle/
I noticed just now that the photos of pre-war Winchester slings that he added are no longer available, but at the time I did download a copy of the thread (another nice feature of this forum) and I can try to send you a PM with it (if I can figure out how to get this site to attach a pdf file).
Also many people in the day just went with a military M1907 sling, so a pre-war one with brass keepers would not be out of place.
The Albree keeper was supplied as standard equipment on the M70 target rifles in 1936, and was available from the parts catalog as an accessory subsequently. There’s a picture in Rule’s book of a M54 National Match rifle with one in the sling, so it would sure be a neat accessory. Not easy to find one these days…
Two threads where members have posted information about dating Lyman STS scopes (and their boxes) are these:
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-sights/lyman-super-target/
I think that about any Lyman Targetspot (1934-40) would be period correct for your rifle.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
mfivefour said
Is there any way to date the Lyman scope and/or box?
Box with those latches is the 2nd variation, the 1st having swinging hooks that often malfunctioned; still later the box was metal. Strange thing about the wooden boxes: though most of the STSs you see are in them, through 1941 they were never listed in Lyman catalogs! (Post-war, I don’t know, as ’45 is the limit of my catalog interest.) Only catalog reference to scope cases is for a leather one that I’ve never seen. A cardboard box is supposed to be standard, but surviving examples are now extremely rare. Ditto for recoil springs–most pre-war STSs have them, but they’re not listed in the catalogs either; a mystery.
PS–That site you found selling Unertls “reasonably” has been defunct for a long time, if it’s the one I’m thinking of
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Clarence-Too funny… Your “delicate sensibilities”….
Hi James-
Yes. I saw that post. The distinction is between the M54 “Sniper’s Rifle” and “Sniper’s Match” rifle. Don’t blame me, I didn’t name them!!!
The linked post shows a “Sniper’s Rifle”, characterized by a 26″ extra heavy barrel with blade front sigh in a barrel band and a stock that looks like the early M52s. Those are super rare – check Lloyd Thomsen’s “The Forgotten 54” article in the WACA magazine archives. While they were cataloged, it’s doubtful any of them were ever made for commercial sale. I’ve read that the design arose from an unsuccessful effort by Winchester to secure a government contract for sniper rifles. True or not, anything I’ve ever run across claimed there were maybe only four or fewer of them known.
I suspect that mfiftyfour’s rifle is a M54 “Sniper’s Match” rifle, which was in effect the M54 version of what became the M70 bull gun. .30 GOV’T’06 only, 26″ extra heavy barrel (same taper as the 28″ M70 bull gun barrel), with dovetail for front sight. The M54 target rifles had medium heavy straight taper barrels with integral front sight ramps. As the “Sniper’s Match” rifle was made only from late ’35 through ’36, it too is a rare rifle, just not as rare as the “Sniper’s Rifle”…
At least that’s what I think I remember…
Lou
Lou,
Thanks for the tip on The Forgotten 54, plus your other notes. All Winchester fans would do well to take as gospel the last paragraph of the story for most all model Winchesters ever produced, i.e. which is not to say that Winchester would never do that, or some similar statement. Back to the 54 Sniper rifle of watch6.
The barrel on his gun is 26″ and measures 1&1/4 inch in diameter at the breech. This looks to be exactly like the barrel I have on my Winchester produced, Winchester (1903 Springfield action) Sniper Rifle…1922 vintage. Seeing as how the 54 Sniper made its debut in 1929 makes sense, too, considering that the Winchester (1903 Springfield action) Sniper Rifles were still being special ordered and produced for the public, at least, up until 1926 that I know of. This era being just before the onset of the Great Depression when sales were still good, and when Winchester produced their own action to handle bigger cartridges too. So the Winchester-Springfield Sniper Rifle which has its roots in the hope and production of a better sniper rifle for the military, went by the wayside. With this in mind, it is no wonder that only a few of the 54 Snipers are known to have been made, nor is it any wonder to me why Winchester called it the 54 Sniper.
James
November 7, 2015
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Welcome to the forum, mfivefour. Sweet rifle! I’m sitting on the sidelines (for now) in the M54/70 game but this thread is a great primer for the collector starting down that road.
More great information! Thanks TxGunNut. Just got into Winchester Model 54’s and 70’s but this site has been a wealth of information on the subject. Started out with a acquiring a Pre-64 FW in .308, then got a beat up First Standard 54 .30-30 to shoot.
I’ve printed out this thread and others for future reference. Now that I know they can be printed, time to do a little searching.
Louis, sounds advice. Will not change a thing nor mess with it. Had to be careful using my old dial calipers. Think the front sight inserts are missing as well as the sling. I’ve been looking for a clear picture of an Albree keeper but so far all I’ve been able to find are grainy pictures and the original patent. Will make sure to get the correct width sling.
Clarence – this one? http://unertl.alexweb.net. There was a guy who was selling all kinds of sights at a show a couple years ago. Hundreds of them. Think he had a few scopes but I wasn’t collecting then. Haven’t seen him since. Suspect he’s probably from the North East somewhere.
Again, thanks Clarence, Louis and others for id’s, information on what is correct and what is not.
mfivefour said
Clarence – this one? http://unertl.alexweb.net.
Contact him and I believe you’ll find they were all sold years ago; websites live forever, even when the owners stop paying their annual fees–because the host usually thinks it’s not worth the trouble to take them down for non-payment.
mfivefour said
Think the front sight inserts are missing…
Not a problem if you really want them–17a inserts in their little tin box often appear on ebay; maybe they’re even still being manufactured.
Yup, ebay or locally are probably the only options to get a correct scope or inserts. Should have known that site wasn’t active due to the discrepancy in prices. At least now I know what to look for.
Winchester purposefully left the muzzle faces in the white on all “rifle” variations until January 1938. The exception was for the rifle barrels intentionally made with a crowned muzzle (e.g. the Extra Light Weight rifle models). Carbine and Musket barrels were always crowned, and blued.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
To add to what Bert said, Model 70 target and Bull Guns, as well as model 52 target barrels were *always polished to bare metal. There was actually a note on many of the target barrel blueprints “Muzzle to be square and polished bright”, others stated “Polish square to bore C/L” (center line).
* There was a short time in the late 40’s early 50’s when the Model 52 heavy weight barrel flat muzzles were left blued.
* Late post war Model 70 targets/Bull Guns will often be seen with blued/unpolished flat muzzles.
*The standard weight Model 52 barrels with radius crown, and forged front sight ramp were primarily left blued. When these were revised during “C” model production, the forged ramp and crown were removed, and the flat polished muzzle, like the heavier versions was implemented.
Also, Stainless steel barreled model 70 sporters such as the 220 swift and others will always have a bare metal crown due to the special method used in bluing stainless steel barrels.
It has also been my experience that the rust blued sporter barrels were polished and left in the white. This was due to the fact that the barrel bores had to be plugged to prevemt the acidic solution used in the rust blue process from damaging the bores while processing.
I’m sure there are other exceptions also, just cannot think of them at the moment.
Steve
Bert and Steve,
Thanks for the explanations. I’ve been reading about the different bluing processes used on the 54. I’m wondering if one is more durable than the other?
For the early production rifles with the Nickel Steel barrels, Winchester rust blued them. The later rifles with the Proof Steel barrels used a different bluing method & formula. In my opinion, the rust blued barrels look better.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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