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Here is a picture from the Standard Catalog of Winchester by Tom Webster, Ned Schwing, Ray Giles, Dan Shuey and Phil White. Edited by David Kowalski. Page 275. Winchester did sell belts of the Mills type with these 1 piece buckles on them. I will be glad to tell my friend anything that is not the way he thinks it to be. He still says Winchester supplied the 2 piece buckles, the portion that is stamped with the dog head was 2 pieces, for Mills and later Winchester sold belts with Mills stamped on the 1 piece buckle.
Chuck said
Talked to my friend. He isn’t exactly sure where he read it but believes it could have been in Anson Mill’s autobiography My Story. Here is an interesting item I found.
Could this refer to the Winchester dog poster? The only Winchester item I found.
Well gentlemen figured I’d add my two cents for what its worth.
I remembered and found what I had read. On page 19 of Giles & Shuey’s “One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes 1859-1956”, it states the following in the bottom right hand corner. “In 1881 Winchester became a marketing agent for Anson Mills. So for the next 20 years labels may be found with an “ad” line for Anson Mills’ cartridge belts included with the primer callout.” Bottom image of the page shows the Primer call-out with said Ad Line.
I have one of the “Grizzly Bear” buckles that is noted in the Kowalski book.
The last image is the markings that state “Pat. Feb. 15, 1881. Manufactured by the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. New Haven. Conn. U.S.A.”
What I found remarkable about the bear on the buckle, which is why I bought it, is the head of the bear is identical to an engraving done on a oval gold plated inlaid plaque that is on Teddy Roosevelt’s Model 1876 Rifle Serial #38647 on the right side buttstock.
All that aside, I still have no idea actually who made the belt buckle. If it was made by Mills or by Winchester or someone else. And the more I look into this topic, the more I’m concerned about fakery in this area of collecting.
I found the following book preview that mentions, Gaylord was asked by Mills to make these buckles for Winchester, Remington and other fire-arms companies. The book itself seems to be an interesting topic, as it is calling out and exposing fake exhibition belts. See links below.
linkCode=qs&qid=1573709369&s=books&sr=1-1
Here also is the writers website. Although it doesn’t appear to have been updated in several years, and most of the links on it are dead links.
http://www.bogusbuckles.com/index.html
So overall I don’t know what to make of these buckles, but I’m considering getting a copy of this book.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Thanks for finding this book, Maverick–it’s fascinating for many reasons. In the first place, I had no idea that SO many different buckle designs had been manufactured in the years between the Civil War & WWI–it’s astounding! Other buckle makers are mentioned, but the chief interest of the original author (not the reprint editor) was the work of the E. Gaylord Co. of Chicopee Falls, Mass. (famous, I hope everyone knows, for being the home of J. Stevens Arms!), a sub-contractor for the Tiffany Co.; so even the buckles marked “Made by Tiffany Co.” were actually manufactured by Gaylord, except the very few stamped in silver, the only ones actually made in Tiffany’s own NY factory.
The Dog Head design was originally ordered by Wells Fargo to represent a guard-dog, if I understood the author correctly. Google’s “preview” of this book is short on illustrations, but about 50 pages were omitted, which may be where most of the buckle illustrations are located–a good reason to buy it.
Especially interesting is the discussion of fakes, & the book published by one of the crooks having them made in Mexico to “legitimize” them for collectors! What an incredible scam–first make fakes, then publish a book to “prove” they’re legit! Since the first of them were made about 1960, those now have 60 yrs worth of honest patina on them, to further fool collectors.
I have a couple of the canvas belts. They both have buckles with the slanting “WINCHESTER” over a -W- on the front and have “ANSON MILLS, PAT.FEB. 1, 1881” stamped on the hook part of the buckle. The one has the double loop design (holds 100 cartridges) and seems to be for 25-35 cal. or possibly the 6mm Lee cartridges. The second belt is for 20 gauge shells and has several small brass hooks along the bottom. It shows signs of heavy use. Does this seem correct or a possible counterfeit? Thanks for your input, Roger
S
clarence said
Could this refer to the Winchester dog poster? The only Winchester item I found.
See item 98045. Buckle is stamped made by Winchester. Of course this does not prove that Winchester didn’t contract these out. I might buy the autobiography of Anson Mills to see what is in it.
Chicopee Falls was the home of Ames the famous sword maker too. I think this area had other manufactures too.
Chuck said
Buckle is stamped made by Winchester. Of course this does not prove that Winchester didn’t contract these out.
No it does not, because the manufacturer who “jobs out” some particular part or item still ordinarily marks the item with their own name, as Tiffany did with their buckles, & as the various makers of the Ballard did with their cast-iron receivers, cast first by an independently-owned foundry in Worster, Mass.
rogertherelic said
I have a couple of the canvas belts. They both have the slanting “WINCHESTER” over a -W- on the front and have “ANSON MILLS, PAT.FEB. 1, 1881” stamped on the hook part of the buckle. The one has the double loop design (holds 100 cartridges) and seems to be for 25-35 cal. or possibly the 6mm Lee cartridges. The second belt is for 20 gauge shells and has several small brass hooks along the bottom. It shows signs of heavy use. Does this seem correct or a possible counterfeit? Thanks for your input, Roger
One thing that hasn’t been faked, according to what I’ve been reading about Mills belts, are the woven belts themselves, because the machinery to make them was scrapped; Mills repros have the cartridge loops sewn on, rather than woven in to the fabric of the belt.
Chuck said
I might buy the autobiography of Anson Mills to see what is in it.
I’d buy it too, except that I’ve already decided I dislike the man–he supported both women’s suffrage & prohibition! (Not to mention being part of the invasion of the homeland of my ancestors!)
Thanks again to Clarence! Both of the belts have the woven loops. Now only the buckles are in question. Roger
clarence said
Chuck said
I might buy the autobiography of Anson Mills to see what is in it.
I’d buy it too, except that I’ve already decided I dislike the man–he supported both women’s suffrage & prohibition! (Not to mention being part of the invasion of the homeland of my ancestors!)
Clarence, if you don’t have the book, “A Disease in the Public Mind” by Thomas Fleming, it is more than worth its price: https://tinyurl.com/u5uwrbf
James
Chuck said
Talked to my friend. He isn’t exactly sure where he read it but believes it could have been in Anson Mill’s autobiography My Story. Here is an interesting item I found.
There is one on ebay, but it seems to be very spendy, Chuck.
James
jwm94 said
Clarence, if you don’t have the book, “A Disease in the Public Mind” by Thomas Fleming, it is more than worth its price: https://tinyurl.com/u5uwrbf
James
Don’t have it, but know about it. Definitely not on Nancy’s, Bernie’s, etc., reading list.
jwm94 said
There is one on ebay, but it seems to be very spendy, Chuck.
James
It appears there are a lot of these for sale and some are very reasonable. Reprints abound.
Did some research on Emerson George Gaylord. He was a leather worker/maker. Eventually he worked for N. P. Ames the makers of swords, cannons and accoutrements. He left Ames and went into business for himself and contracted to do work for Ames. In 1856 he bought out the leather and accoutrements side of Ames. But here again there is no proof that he made the buckles or other metal parts himself even though some are stamped with his company name. In 1861 he received a four year contact to make accoutrements for the Military but actually did so for about 12 years. After that he did not make these items any further but instead was making cabinet locks and and swords. He had ventured into more profitably venues.
There are a lot of articles about fake Tiffany items including some of the metal items we are talking about. It is well documented that Gaylord did supply leather goods.
I talked with my friend today. He will look through some of his reference books. He says there was a contract for 5 years between Winchester and Mills prior to the 1880’s. He doubts that this will prove who actually made the buckles though but Mills did not have the equipment to do so and the early plates are not marked with a maker. Later Mills did put their name on the buckles like the one that started this conversation.
Again my friend is not a Winchester collector he is only concerned about Military items some of which are Winchesters. He is far less concerned about any civilian items. As far as Mills belts go he has dozens showing almost all variations. He still thinks the dog head one is a pistol belt.
Chuck said
Did some research on Emerson George Gaylord. He was a leather worker/maker. Eventually he worked for N. P. Ames the makers of swords, cannons and accoutrements. He left Ames and went into business for himself and contracted to do work for Ames. In 1856 he bought out the leather and accoutrements side of Ames. But here again there is no proof that he made the buckles or other metal parts himself even though some are stamped with his company name.
The more deeply you look into “who made what,” the more complicated & confusing the matter becomes! I haven’t researched Gaylord, but I’ve looked superficially into Ames. Surely anyone interested in American military history has heard of Ames huge role in US sword production, but I’d never have imagined this “arms industry” got itself involved in BICYCLE production! But it did so in a major way, when it became a sub-contractor for the Overland Bicycle Co., the leading producer of modern “safety bicycles.” (As opposed to high-wheelers.) But who ended up owning the Overland factory (large enough to employ 1700 workers), after the company went bankrupt due to a glut in the bicycle market in the late 1890s? J. Stevens Arms.
Many if not most leather goods from belts to bridles require some kind of metal fastener, so it would not be surprising if Gaylord bought out, or otherwise gained control of, some metal fabricating operation in the Worster area. Percy Seibert”s description of Gaylord’s die stamping process (this is that book in Maverick’s link) gives me the impression he wasn’t “making it up,” so I’m inclined to trust his statements about Gaylord, at least until evidence to the contrary shows up.
Iver Johnson changed it’s name to Iver Johnson’s Arms & Cycle Works in 1891/1894. I guess if you had the equipment and the manpower you would make whatever you could sell.
Here is an exert from Anson Mills’ autobiography about his belts.
“On September 22, 1879, I offered, through the Chief of Ordnance, General Benet, to give the invention to the government if he would manufacture the belts in his department, thus advertising its worth to the sporting trade and to other nations. He preferred purchasing the belts in open market. The Gilbert Loom Company, of Worcester, agreed to furnish forty thousand single loop belts, paying me a small royalty. The forty thousand belts supplied the army for five years, so that neither Mr. Gilbert nor I received any large compensation. But we supplied a larger number to the sporting trade for different sized arms, rifles and shotguns, and so had sufficient income to keep the factory going. The Winchester Arms Company had the sole right to sell the sporting goods for five years, yet at the end of that period we received from both sources less money net than I had expended in the twelve years from 1866 to 1878 in perfecting and exploiting my improvements.
The cartridges for army belts were forty-five caliber. More than fifty loops on a belt for an ordinary man were not possible; yet, for rapid fire, it was necessary to have more than fifty cartridges on the person, and it was too cumbersome to carry two belts.
At the expiration of Mr. Gilbert’s contract I entered into a contract with my brother-in-law, Mr. T. C. Orndorff, by which he was to devote his entire attention to building up the factory and perfecting the belt. He agreed that by diligent application and industry there was a fortune in the prospective improveents of the web belt and equipments and substitutes for leather, and entered heartily into the spirit of the work. He took over ten looms from Mr. Gilbert and the contract for furnishing the sporting trade from the Winchester Arms Company. I agreed to pay him an annual salary and ten per cent of the net profits. During the first three years, owing to difficulties with the trade and the Winchester Company, there were no profits; indeed, I advanced the factory a large sum of money. But he never lost courage”.
So it appears that Mills himself never made the belts, Winchester had the rights to sell the commercial belts for 5 years and nowhere so far does it mention who made the buckles. The loom companies surely didn’t.
I researched the Gilbert Loom Co. In Douglas C. McChristian’s book Uniforms, Arms and Equipment: Weapons and Accouterments on page 103 paragraph 2
he states that Mills and T.G. Bennett of Winchester made an agreement so that Winchester would make 10,000 stamped brass plates for Mills with his US pattern.
It is then possible that Winchester did make the civilian buckles too.
https://books.google.com/books?id=XR_oRjNZFxsC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=The+Gilbert+Loom+Company,+of+Worcester&source=bl&ots=PnORl-yu23&sig=ACfU3U1eh7H8CzUt7eSsgMp4CQ9Thou5ww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaiN2PrfLlAhWpCTQIHWNDAjQQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Gilbert%20Loom%20Company%2C%20of%20Worcester&f=false
Chuck said
he states that Mills and T.G. Bennett of Winchester made an agreement so that Winchester would make 10,000 stamped brass plates for Mills with his US pattern.
Many thanks for digging this up, although I did not actually find this statement in the “preview,” where at least 200 pages were omitted. Anyway, I found the story of the many difficulties & setbacks in perfecting the belts (forcing Mills himself to design & manufacture the very looms used in weaving them) more interesting than the question of who made the buckles. And I was bowled over by the incredible detail of McChristian’s research! He obviously sifted through thousands of pages of Ordnance Dept records to find such highly detailed info. I’m so impressed I’m thinking now of buying another one of his books, his research on the development of marksmanship training in the US Army.
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