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Hi everybody,
I recently bought an original Mills Belt (doghead buckle) to go with my Winchester rifles on the wall…. unfortunately I can not tell, which caliber it was made for. .30-30 cartridges fit quite well, but they protrude over the edges of the belt. .44-40 will not go through the loops and are almost completely covered by the loops should you manage to get them in. .45 long cartridges such as the .45-60 and .45-70 won’t fit the loops not, either. I would love to post pics but do not have a FB account etc.
Is it possible that the loops shrank during the aging process?
Thanks for your help, guys!
If you can post pictures I have a friend that will know what it is for. Someone else will have to tell your how a guest can post pictures.
If it has a dogs head buckle, the belt was made for the civilian market. If this is the case, photos and better description are necessary. Width of belt and length of cartridge loops would help. I have several of these belts. Some for .30-40 Krag, .30-06 and one for .38-55. The pistol caliber Mills belts were narrow, maybe only 1 3/4″ wide.
Here is a picture of the buckle and part of the belt. My friend says that it is a later, 1890 – 1900, civilian belt. These were made in many calibers and this one could be for a 44 or 45 Colt. The buckle may be marked Mills. The earlier buckles were 2 piece and were unmarked but made by Winchester. The stripes are to show that this is a civilian and not a stolen Government belt.
Chuck said
The earlier buckles were 2 piece and were unmarked but made by Winchester.
Was the Mills factory in New Haven? Little company info on internet that I could find, except “for sale” listings. Could find neither these or other cartridge belts listed in the WRA catalogs I checked.
Winchester only made the buckles for Mills. Mills didn’t have the tooling to do buckles. I am not sure where the Mills belts were actually manufactured. I will ask my friend on Saturday, if I can remember.
Chuck said
Mills didn’t have the tooling to do buckles.
Cheaper to contract the job out to a factory with metal stamping equipment than to set up their own production line. But did WRA make the “US” buckles, too?
Winchester did not make any of the military contract buckles. There were several civilian buckle designs, most common are the dogs head and bears head. The bears head was associated with Winchester, but I doubt seriously that they made that buckle in house. Most likely contracted out. From the photo, I would say it is most likely a standard .45-70 caliber belt. Belts were not always the same width as the length of the cartridge. In the case of a .45-70 round, the 300 grain bullet would work much better that the 405 or 500 grain bullet.
His cartridge belt manufacturing company was in Worcester, Mass.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/a-mills.htm
James
jwm94 said
His cartridge belt manufacturing company was in Worcester, Mass.http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/a-mills.htm
James
There’s a short Wikipedia bio of him, but this info is far more thorough. His factory being in Worcester makes me a little skeptical about the WRA relationship–Worcester was an industrial powerhouse in the 19th C.
win4575 said
Winchester did not make any of the military contract buckles. There were several civilian buckle designs, most common are the dogs head and bears head. The bears head was associated with Winchester, but I doubt seriously that they made that buckle in house. Most likely contracted out. From the photo, I would say it is most likely a standard .45-70 caliber belt. Belts were not always the same width as the length of the cartridge. In the case of a .45-70 round, the 300 grain bullet would work much better that the 405 or 500 grain bullet.
Thanks Chuck for posting my pic and thanks for all your help guys! I would love to see the belt being for my favorite caliber .45-70 – but it is almost impossible to get the vintage cartridge through the loop. Or is that due to the age of the belt, the material maybe having shrunk?
F.K. said
Or is that due to the age of the belt, the material maybe having shrunk?
The big advantage of canvas over leather was that it did NOT shrink! In fact it was more stable & long-lasting in every way than leather, & didn’t cause verdigris to grow like a fungus around brass fittings.
win4575 said
Winchester did not make any of the military contract buckles. There were several civilian buckle designs, most common are the dogs head and bears head. The bears head was associated with Winchester, but I doubt seriously that they made that buckle in house. Most likely contracted out. From the photo, I would say it is most likely a standard .45-70 caliber belt. Belts were not always the same width as the length of the cartridge. In the case of a .45-70 round, the 300 grain bullet would work much better that the 405 or 500 grain bullet.
Rick I will ask my friend if he has any documentation on the civilian buckles, especially why he thinks Winchester made some of them. He is a military expert but not a Winchester expert. He has authored and co authored a hand full of books on Military guns and their accoutrements. He helps me out when I am looking to buy military items from the Civil War through Korea.
Chuck said
Rick I will ask my friend if he has any documentation on the civilian buckles, especially why he thinks Winchester made some of them. He is a military expert but not a Winchester expert.
I find this allegation questionable because there’s no history of Winchester ever producing buckles for their own promotional purposes (such as all these modern fakes), which could easily have been done once a production line was set up to make them for Mills. In fact, a deal to exchange buckles for Mills belts (which could have been sold by Winchester dealers) seems to me the most logical business arrangement, if such a relationship between the two companies ever existed.
Even from a bona fide “Winchester expert,” I’d want some kind of verifiable evidence, such as a reference to company records, advertisements, marked products, etc.
clarence said
Chuck said
Rick I will ask my friend if he has any documentation on the civilian buckles, especially why he thinks Winchester made some of them. He is a military expert but not a Winchester expert.
I find this allegation questionable because there’s no history of Winchester ever producing buckles for their own promotional purposes (such as all these modern fakes), which could easily have been done once a production line was set up to make them for Mills. In fact, a deal to exchange buckles for Mills belts (which could have been sold by Winchester dealers) seems to me the most logical business arrangement, if such a relationship between the two companies ever existed.
Even from a bona fide “Winchester expert,” I’d want some kind of verifiable evidence, such as a reference to company records, advertisements, marked products, etc.
Clarence you mean there is no history that you know of. I don’t know either that is why I am going to ask him why he thinks this to be true. He did tell me that the buckle in question is not one of the ones he believes might have been made for Mills by Winchester. In fact he thought this one could be marked Mills.
Just looked at the Mills belt I have for my .38-55 SRC and the dogs head buckle is marked
“Mills Woven Cartridge Belt Co.”
Sole Makers
Worchester, Mass.
The brass riveted end with adjustment for waist size, is marked Patented April 18, 1905. Neither the .30-06 or the .30-40 Krag cartridges will even come close to fitting these loops. The .38-55 fits perfectly and the .32-40 is a bit loose. Now I’m not claiming this was made specifically for the .38-55 cartridge (no caliber markings on the belt) but this cartridge is a perfect fit in these loops. Belt is near new and does not appear to have ever had cartridges of any caliber in the loops.
Here’s a book that might settle the “buckle question,” & I’d buy it myself if I owned even one Mills belt. It’s a history of the Mills Co.
I maybe wrong, but wasn’t Anson Mills bought out by Winchester in the 1870s or 80s?
I thought I remember reading that somewhere. I’ll look and see where I thought I saw that.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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