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Early Winchester velocity measurements
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July 25, 2023 - 12:09 am
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I was reading some old posts from John Kort on the castboolits forum.  John was one heck of a knowledgeable guy.  Sadly, he’s been gone several years now.  I mainly remember him as quite the student of the .44-40.  Anyway, in a discussion of the .38-72 (of all things), he mentioned, “In 1910, Winchester updated their velocities and show the .38-72 at 1475 fps.  This is because the earlier velocities were taken at 50 feet from the muzzle.  In 1910 they corrected them to muzzle velocity.  Beginning in the 1905 Winchester catalog and up until 1909, the notation “taken at 50″ was added to the ballistics table.  The velocities shown math the ones in the 1895 catalog.  Then in 1910, the velocities were changed to show the true muzzle velocities.”

I suppose that in the catalogs prior to 1905, a reader might interpret that the velocities shown were muzzle velocities – which bascially resulted in Winchester selling their performance short.  This would also happen in 1905 through 1909, if the reader didn’t read the fine print.

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July 25, 2023 - 12:20 am
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steve004 said   I mainly remember him as quite the student of the .44-40. 
  

And .30 WCF.  And BP loads for .22 RFs!

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July 25, 2023 - 12:35 am
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clarence said

steve004 said   I mainly remember him as quite the student of the .44-40. 

  

And .30 WCF.  And BP loads for .22 RFs!

  

That’s right – he knew about anything a person could not about the .30WCF.  This was reflected in the handle he chose – w30wcf – I was not tuned into his knowledge of BP loads for .22’s – but that has never been area of study for me.  You can’t study it all!

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July 25, 2023 - 1:31 am
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I remember John well, always took the time to write well-researched posts and was always willing to help. I applied much of what I learned from his 44WCF posts to my 38WCF project and to a lesser extent the 32WCF. More importantly, John was gracious enough to tell me about this site when I discovered how much fun I could have shooting old Winchesters.

 

Mike

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August 3, 2023 - 4:00 am
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steve004 said
I was reading some old posts from John Kort on the castboolits forum.  John was one heck of a knowledgeable guy.  Sadly, he’s been gone several years now.  I mainly remember him as quite the student of the .44-40.  Anyway, in a discussion of the .38-72 (of all things), he mentioned, “In 1910, Winchester updated their velocities and show the .38-72 at 1475 fps.  This is because the earlier velocities were taken at 50 feet from the muzzle.  In 1910 they corrected them to muzzle velocity.  Beginning in the 1905 Winchester catalog and up until 1909, the notation “taken at 50″ was added to the ballistics table.  The velocities shown math the ones in the 1895 catalog.  Then in 1910, the velocities were changed to show the true muzzle velocities.”

I suppose that in the catalogs prior to 1905, a reader might interpret that the velocities shown were muzzle velocities – which bascially resulted in Winchester selling their performance short.  This would also happen in 1905 through 1909, if the reader didn’t read the fine print.

  

Steve,

In the 1910 catalog, does it state the distance the velocity is taken from the muzzle? Im gonna have to get a copy of the 1910 catalog to see the changes across calibers.

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August 3, 2023 - 10:34 pm
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https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shooting-and-hunting/30-w-c-f-short-range-cartridges-1896-1924-and-their-replications/

On an older post above, I posted three different tables from the 1999 Spring WACA Magazine. The discussion at the time was short range cartridges but others are listed on it. The 38-72 is listed with a velocity of 1450 fpc Smoke & Black Powder and noted 100′ between screens. Note sure when these charts are supposed to be dated from.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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August 4, 2023 - 2:26 am
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This thread brings to mind an early method of measuring bullet speed. They would spin a large wheel covered with paper at a given speed and fire the gun. Then they would measure the distance between the entrance (start) and exit (stop) holes and determine the velocity. Reckon placing the near side (start) of the wheel aways downrange was a precaution to keep it from catching fire? 

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August 4, 2023 - 10:04 am
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TXGunNut said
This thread brings to mind an early method of measuring bullet speed. They would spin a large wheel covered with paper at a given speed and fire the gun. Then they would measure the distance between the entrance (start) and exit (stop) holes and determine the velocity. Reckon placing the near side (start) of the wheel aways downrange was a precaution to keep it from catching fire? 

Mike

  

Mike – interesting – something I had never heard of.  Would love to have seen it in practice.

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