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Maverick said
Serial numbers were stamped along with most other markings after the final polish was completed and before the part was blued.
The only fallacy with that statement would be those models that have removable lower tangs.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Maverick
Does that mean 1873s, 1886s, 1892s, and 1894s were serial numbered before polish? Is this why I see so many of these models with fancy features going to the warehouse out of sequence?
I never understood how the guns flowed thru the factory during manufacture, any light on the subject is appreciated. T/R
TR said
Maverick
Does that mean 1873s, 1886s, 1892s, and 1894s were serial numbered before polish? Is this why I see so many of these models with fancy features going to the warehouse out of sequence?
I never understood how the guns flowed thru the factory during manufacture, any light on the subject is appreciated. T/R
TR
That is not exactly what I’m saying and I’m not saying I know something special. I’m trying to continue to research such things. But to say I know for certain how things were done over hundred years ago would be a fallacy on my part without substantial evidence to prove one way or another.
But a simple fact that goes along with a all encompassing statement like, “Winchester receivers were serialized when they went through the Polishing Room.” Is that not all model Winchesters had serial numbers on the receiver, some had them on detachable / removable lower tangs. At what sequence the serial number was applied on them, I don’t know exactly. But it may not have been the same for each model and may not have been the same through the entire production.
Also I think we as collectors try to simplify things. Take your question, “Does that mean 1873s, 1886s, 1892s, and 1894s were serial numbered before polish?” At what stage of the Polishing process are we referring to? A Gross Polish before final assembly, a Assembled Polish, a Polishing performed after fit finish and bluing was done. I would imagine the Polishing process may have been more than one simple procedure.
There also may a simple explanation for why things were the way they were. A “Fancy” gun likely took longer to work on that a regular production plain jane gun and therefore didn’t progress down the line as fast as the serial before and after it.
Doing research into reloading tools, I’ve found where they were polished multiple times before the final product was achieved.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick,
The workings of a factory that many years ago making many different models may never be understood. I’m sure Winchester did not want it’s competitors to know how they did things. Winchester documents might be hard to find.
I will continue to not understand with an occasional maybe.
Appreciate your insight and time. T/R
Maverick said
Are you asking a question here? Or just making a statement? As I’m confused on the context.
If a question, yes. If a statement, I agree with you.
Serial numbers were stamped along with most other markings after the final polish was completed and before the part was blued.
The only fallacy with that statement would be those models that have removable lower tangs.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Was just making a statement, had I been asking a question would have punctuated with a ?
Apologize for any confusion on the context.
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Ted
No apologies necessary. If there was any confusion, it was likely solely on my part.
Sometimes we don’t know unless we ask.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Throwing a monkey wrench in things here with my 1892, Serial Number applied July 1, 1896, in warehouse December 15 1899. Mine has the WP hammer and is #61232
Eric
November 7, 2015
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Eric-
I think that’s consistent with the implications of the ledger entries and Michael’s earlier post (31). I don’t believe your 1892 was a regular production gun based on the number and type of optional features and the length of time between SNA and date received in the warehouse. I’m of the opinion that the craftsmen who built special order guns didn’t go through a lot of receivers so any given receiver might have spent a few years waiting in a tray before it was built into a gun and as has been pointed it they were not necessarily used in order of serialization. If a receiver can hang around the shop for 3-4 years before being used I see no reason why a hammer can’t do the same.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Eric-I think that’s consistent with the implications of the ledger entries and Michael’s earlier post (31). I don’t believe your 1892 was a regular production gun based on the number and type of optional features and the length of time between SNA and date received in the warehouse. I’m of the opinion that the craftsmen who built special order guns didn’t go through a lot of receivers so any given receiver might have spent a few years waiting in a tray before it was built into a gun and as has been pointed it they were not necessarily used in order of serialization. If a receiver can hang around the shop for 3-4 years before being used I see no reason why a hammer can’t do the same.
Mike
Mike,
I am of the opinion that the hammer, and the internal components may have been fully assembled and THEN sat around until it was used. I also believe that those receivers with outstanding bluing were set aside to be used on special order rifles. It seems to be more common for those rifles with long delays between the serialization date and the time when they were actually made up into a functioning rifles and entered the warehouse are rifles that are special order and fancy guns.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Sometimes I do wonder if we as collectors focus on things that not even the factory may have known or would have even cared about.
A lot of what we as collectors determine about various features is from looking back through the records. We can determine the last engraved rifle as its a features are noted in the records. Anything not noted in the ledger records is merely going to be best guess on our part. As there is no way to know for certain. There is no record per say on the guns as the style of barrel address, tang markings, caliber markings, type of dust cover, type of hammer, bolts, firing pin, etc.
The only thing close to such a record is a “Change in Manufacture” notice or a factory memorandum or a date on a drawing when a procedure or practice was “Discarded”. But then all you have is a date when that change went into affect. No one wrote down the last serial number or made such a proclamation that a certain practice would end at a certain serial number. It was phased out as parts lasted or a procedure was done until the labor force was told the change in manufacture.
Some changes that occurred weren’t even documented well per say. I have some factory drawings, these are the original pencil and ink drawings on vellum paper. As standard practice of the day all the drawings were first drawn by pencil and finalized in ink. A lot of people assume that once a drawing was inked it was final and would be redrawn if needed to be changed. Which sometimes was done, but more commonly an electric eraser was used to remove the ink and pencil and you simply re-draw the change. Sometimes these changes had revision notes and sometimes they didn’t.
In example on a page from the WRACo stamp book, Book No.10 Sheet No. 372 is a detail dimensioned drawing for making “Standard Stamp Blanks”. It has a note “Make Blanks of CLASS 4 STEEL” which was re-drawn over an erased note that says “Make Blanks of Class ‘B’ Steel”.
So at some point they changed the Stamp Blank Steel from Class B to Class 4 Steel. It is not documented on the drawing when the change took place. Which I’m not entirely certain what is meant by the note Class 4 Steel. Class B Steel is now known as “D”- a non-alloy semi-finished not finally annealed steel.
So sometimes even the factory drawing may not always clear something up. And I believe defining a serial range (as Madis and other authors have done) for when certain changes occurred makes more sense than trying to nail down a specific serial number.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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Thank you Maverick. Very seldom is there a simple answer for a simple question. T/R
November 7, 2015
Offline
twobit said
Mike,
I am of the opinion that the hammer, and the internal components may have been fully assembled and THEN sat around until it was used. I also believe that those receivers with outstanding bluing were set aside to be used on special order rifles. It seems to be more common for those rifles with long delays between the serialization date and the time when they were actually made up into a functioning rifles and entered the warehouse are rifles that are special order and fancy guns.
Michael
Michael-
That makes as much sense as any other theory but quite honestly that possibility hadn’t occurred to me. I suppose most of us have noted the time lapse often documented on some special order guns. As Maverick noted it may mean little. We may never know but the theories based on the little tidbits of information we’re left with certainly make the hobby more interesting. I’ve always assumed that all finish work of this period was what I would consider outstanding but considering the skill levels of these craftsmen I suppose they could have produced an exceptional piece now and then.
Mike
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