Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
condition vs special features
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 542
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
April 17, 2022 - 12:16 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I am probably just re hashing an old topic here, but I am curious what some of you guys think. If there were 2 rifles for sale, same model but one is very well preserved and is in a state of high condition, ie lots of bright case color, deep rich original blue and just basically unmolested. Second one is original but condition has faded considerably,ie blue has faded to silver, high edge wear, wood has been sanded/cleaned/ reoiled, but has really unique special order features some of which are seldom found. So, now they are priced the same, which one to buy? Oh, and one more thing, neither one is represented in your collection.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
April 17, 2022 - 12:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I suspect most would choose the high condition rifle.  There’s probably a reason collectors say, “condition, condition, condition” rather than, “special order features, special order features, special order features.”

For me, the answer would be in the details of the special order rifle.  Not all special order features are equal.  For example, DST’s on a carbine is going to pull me in more than the same feature on a rifle.  The precise condition details would be important for me.  You listed both re-oiled and sanded wood.  Those are two dramatically different alterations for me.  For example, a piece that has sanded wood, particularly such that it is below the metal – I will run from a piece like that.  

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4889
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
April 17, 2022 - 2:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Plans for the acquired rifle would have an effect on that decision. If plans include eventual resale condition will improve the odds of resale for a good price in a timely manner. Some collectors are not interested in a non-original specimen at any price, that often includes sanded wood. I classify cleaning and oiling of a well-used stock as necessary maintenance in most cases. I like unusual specimens but have learned that Winchesters with non-standard or alternative standard features are actually almost common. Guns I used to think were “special order” were actually regular production items. While I enjoy “special order” guns as a reminder of a bygone manufacturing era in this situation I would choose condition over features.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
🇨🇦🇺🇸
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 498
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
April 17, 2022 - 2:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

It would depend on the special order features. If we’re talking lettered set triggers or scarce 3/4 mag & X wood or 2X wood I would have to give it some thought & consideration but generally the high condition piece for the same price would be my choice. 

 RickC 

   

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4269
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
April 17, 2022 - 2:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I have always thought and heard that condition is rare but also you need to know what features they have since some features make a worn gun worth more than a mint plain gun. Case in point a mint 73 in 44 compared to a worn 1 of 1000.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
April 17, 2022 - 2:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Some pieces that are original and show honest mellow wear – can really speak to me.  Particularly so if they are, “special” in some way.  This includes pieces that really don’t have a lot of finish.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1672
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
April 17, 2022 - 3:08 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Condition first and foremost!  It would have to be something quite rare to lure me in, such as a matted barrel.  And then, in the end, I would be bothered that the stock has been sanded, and I would eventually sell it.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 542
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
April 17, 2022 - 5:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks to all who have responded to this. So many well regarded folks. I guess this is were a collector has to dig deep and figure out what he wants. I am not in this to simply turn around and resell my guns, I’m building this collection for my sons and grandsons and want some good things for them. Guess the easy answer is buy both but not an option at this point. Thanks to all again.   

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1698
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
April 17, 2022 - 5:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

oldcrankyyankee said
I am probably just re hashing an old topic here, but I am curious what some of you guys think. If there were 2 rifles for sale, same model but one is very well preserved and is in a state of high condition, ie lots of bright case color, deep rich original blue and just basically unmolested. Second one is original but condition has faded considerably,ie blue has faded to silver, high edge wear, wood has been sanded/cleaned/ reoiled, but has really unique special order features some of which are seldom found. So, now they are priced the same, which one to buy? Oh, and one more thing, neither one is represented in your collection.  

  If the feature is rare, rare like 36″ barrel, extra hvy, or history I give up condition. I agree condition is rare, especially on carbines and guns made in the 1870’s so for me, no rules. I’m an impulse buyer, I don’t even know what I want until I see it. T/R

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 542
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
April 17, 2022 - 5:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Lmao TR, so true about impulse, just mine sometimes over rides my bank account! Serious question tho, what came first checkered barrel matting or wavy matte. it pertains to one of these guns I’m looking at  

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
April 17, 2022 - 6:20 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TR said

  If the feature is rare, rare like 36″ barrel, extra hvy, or history I give up condition. I agree condition is rare, especially on carbines and guns made in the 1870’s so for me, no rules. I’m an impulse buyer, I don’t even know what I want until I see it. T/R  

I am so very familiar with this.  Smile

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 518
Member Since:
April 1, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
April 17, 2022 - 6:52 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

oldcrankyyankee said
Lmao TR, so true about impulse, just mine sometimes over rides my bank account! Serious question tho, what came first checkered barrel matting or wavy matte. it pertains to one of these guns I’m looking at    

I am a matted barrel fan so hopefully we get some feedback from someone knowledgeable on this. I had always been under the impression checkered and wavy were the only styles. However, on a Forum post at some point I believe someone said there was a 3rd style. It would be interesting to know history and which style came first. No doubt it is a rare feature – for the Model 1886, John Madl research only found 206 (all calibers) with the barrel matting.

matt2.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 542
Member Since:
February 17, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
April 17, 2022 - 9:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Well Mr. Humphrey in my short time here on earth Ive only seen two types, checkered and wavy, and as such only seen three of each. Thats what is making this question come up as the ” special feature” gun is so intriguing. But I would love to hear if there was another style, and still would like to know the dates the different ones were produced.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1698
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
April 17, 2022 - 11:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

 I really like matted barrels, they are rare. Unfortunately I have never owned one or handled enough to know types and time periods. If someone does, I’m all ears. T/R

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 24
Member Since:
May 8, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
April 18, 2022 - 12:25 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I’ll chime in here, as I’ve thought about this a lot.  It took decades of buying and selling for me to realize what kind of collector I am.  Personally, I’ll choose special configurations over condition every time.  Every gun in my collection, no matter how expensive, is getting shot/used at some point in its life.  I love loading for these guns and keeping them active!  Therefore the pristine “condition” gun would really be a bad investment for me.  I would shoot it and use it.  Therefore, its the rare config, but honest Winchester that really gets me going.  However, the caveat is that the gun has to letter perfectly with all of the features.  I won’t touch a gun that won’t letter.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
April 18, 2022 - 12:32 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

velosa said
I’ll chime in here, as I’ve thought about this a lot.  It took decades of buying and selling for me to realize what kind of collector I am.  Personally, I’ll choose special configurations over condition every time.  Every gun in my collection, no matter how expensive, is getting shot/used at some point in its life.  I love loading for these guns and keeping them active!  Therefore the pristine “condition” gun would really be a bad investment for me.  I would shoot it and use it.  Therefore, its the rare config, but honest Winchester that really gets me going.  However, the caveat is that the gun has to letter perfectly with all of the features.  I won’t touch a gun that won’t letter.  

It’s interesting to hear the different perspectives.  Does your above statement mean you won’t own a gun that is outside the letterable range?

Avatar
🇨🇦🇺🇸
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 498
Member Since:
March 14, 2022
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
April 18, 2022 - 12:40 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

That’s hundreds of thousands 94’s being passed over(Post 1906) because of no letter, and the majority of carbines that letter only tell you the calibre. 
If it’s a high value rifle with special order features I want a letter, otherwise no letter is fine for me on standard guns that look right & no suspicions. Jmo

 RickC 

   

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4269
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
April 18, 2022 - 12:43 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

oldcrankyyankee said
Well Mr. Humphrey in my short time here on earth Ive only seen two types, checkered and wavy, and as such only seen three of each. Thats what is making this question come up as the ” special feature” gun is so intriguing. But I would love to hear if there was another style, and still would like to know the dates the different ones were produced.  

I did a quick search of 73’s with matt barrels and found one second model with wavy lines and the later ones are checkered but I see several variations in the checkering from lines per inch variations to pattern variations. Out of about 19,300 guns in my survey only 27 matt barrels.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4108
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
April 18, 2022 - 12:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I knew I was  not alone in thinking that matted barrels are very cool.

Avatar
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1267
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
April 18, 2022 - 12:50 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TR said
 I really like matted barrels, they are rare. Unfortunately I have never owned one or handled enough to know types and time periods. If someone does, I’m all ears. T/R  

Tom

Here are the three styles I’m aware of and have observed. Possibly in the order they were available …….. but can’t say for sure. Just my observations. 

Square Cut

Square-Cut-Matting.jpegImage Enlarger

Diagonal Cut

Diagonal-Cut-Matting.JPGImage Enlarger

Wavy Cut

Wavy-Cut-Matting-1.JPGImage Enlarger

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6168
TXGunNut: 4889
Chuck: 4528
1873man: 4269
steve004: 4108
Big Larry: 2297
twobit: 2284
TR: 1698
mrcvs: 1672
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12526
Posts: 108816

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1731
Members: 8737
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation