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I think there are lots of lower condition old Winchesters for those entering
the Winchester collector arena and perhaps the refinished guns will finally be accepted . Also there are all of the recent models produced in New Haven that are already catching on.Then there are all of those nifty old Winchester 22s and the Japanese re-production guns that could act as a starting point.
We as the more seasoned collectors can help by not being so negative about lower condition guns .
New collectors will most likely be young people working for starting wages and will work their way up as they get established in life.
Its up to you and I to get the younger generation interested.
Just my 2 cents worth !
Wayne
wsmrto said
I am in mid 60’s and have a son who is 25 . I taught him to shoot starting at 5. He has been to GS with me all over the middle of this great country. Yes he like the evil black guns but he loves to shoot the old classics too. He also doesn’t have the income as he’s blue collar and works hard. I know there are many like him who are just learning and it takes years to know what they need to keep from getting stung. We need to work with the younger generation and offer to take them shooting and get them past the BS they learn at school.
Took my nephew out today and shot some .33WCF and some .303 Savage. He doesn’t have a lot of experience but is solid, not afraid and doesn’t flinch…pretty good shot for only the second time he’s shot a rifle. Tin cans were destroyed 😀
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/1_zpsb19aa034.jpg.html
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http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/1894%20sight%20reference/2_zps48b873b8.jpg.html
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I guess I try to encourage anyone I think is remotely interested in shooting and old guns to do more and learn more.
I think at some point people pass through this forum here or the WACA website when they are searching for info. Sometimes it might be their first real exposure to serious collecting. Maverick posted this on a different thread here:
"The purpose of this association is to bring those individuals who have an inclination to collect and preserve for posterity those items which, bear the name, trademark or are associated to the name of "Winchester".
Maybe there’s room for something in this statement to include promoting the study and collecting of Winchester arms and memorabilia to those currently not doing so…then of course figuring out ways to do that.
Brad
Wayne wrote:
We as the more seasoned collectors can help by not being so negative about lower condition guns .
I couldn’t agree with you more. There is little more that we could do to an aspiring collector, no matter what their age or economic ability, than to ridicule their choice of what they want to spend their money on. Just because a rifle may have 30% bluing it will be no less valuable to the buyer who has worked long and hard to save some extra cash to buy it than any rifle one of us may own that is high condition. Some of my favorite rifles in my collection are not exactly gorgeous.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Wayne wrote:We as the more seasoned collectors can help by not being so negative about lower condition guns .
I couldn’t agree with you more. There is little more that we could do to an aspiring collector, no matter what their age or economic ability, than to ridicule their choice of what they want to spend their money on. Just because a rifle may have 30% bluing it will be no less valuable to the buyer who has worked long and hard to save some extra cash to buy it than any rifle one of us may own that is high condition. Some of my favorite rifles in my collection are not exactly gorgeous.
Michael
I agree 100%. It’s also good to remember not to confuse market value and rarity with personal preference. Take the rarest, highest-money Winchester in existence; I don’t know what it is but I can almost guarantee you the only reason I would want it is for the money I’d get by selling it. I’d then take that money and buy a slew of barn guns each one of which I’d find more esthetically pleasing than some button mag, pistol gripped, shotgun butted, engraved, inlaid, plated, NIB gift from Oliver to the President which never saw a day in the field. Expert knowledge of seasoned collectors does not impart subjective personality to those who know what they like. If it could, both sides would come away the lesser for it. We should all thank our lucky stars we don’t all like the same thing or we’d be priced out of it by those earn $37 million dollars per day.
My very first old Winchesters were both acquired on the same day. One was well used but original, the other had an extra hole drilled in the upper tang for a tang site but was otherwise unmessed with. I was thrilled with my purchases at the time because I didn’t know anything about originality. That same day an experienced collector looked at my two rifles, said a few complimentary things about them and I was happy. He did very casually mention that in my next acquisition to try and get one without an extra hole drilled in the tang and that clued me in a bit. Nevertheless, if he had ridiculed my two old guns I would have been very discouraged and that may have been the end of what has turned into a hobby of great enjoyment. He gave me encouragement mixed with just enough insight to help me make better choices in the future, but still enjoy my purchases. I like Winchesters in nice condition and I have a few in fairly high condition. But I also confess to really liking old guns that have earned their keep, with plenty of game under their belt and not much finish left. What I do for new collector friends of mine is to compliment them on their gun, no matter how much it is used or messed with, and then I tell them to get in touch with me if they want to get their hands on another old Winchester. It is at that time that I can really spell out what to look for and how to avoid a rifle that has been sanded, drilled, re-blued and so forth. I have a couple friends that just want an old Winchester to shoot and admire and couldn’t care less about collectors value. One of them wanted a ’73 on a shoestring budget. I found a beater that had been messed with in several major ways with some homemade internals and didn’t even work. I fixed it up so it would shoot and he is happier than a pig in a mud hole.
If only the most original and highest condition rifles were worthy of being collected. There would be very few collectors.
Theres nothing wrong with collecting a rifle at the price point a person can afford.
Sure I would love to own nothing but 90% and above rare configuration guns. But until I win the Lotto its just not going to happen. SO I’m happy to find a M1897 for under $350.00 that looks like a $6-700.00 gun. Sure its not perfect. But its mine.
I think when a younger person wants to get into vintage firearms, that should be encouraged. I think that heavily refinished and reblued Winchesters should be avoided, but there is nothing wrong with a vintage firearm with honest wear that is only 40 or 50%. Also, how can one really get interested in this stuff without shooting at least some of it. Save your 95% + guns for the safe, but keep a 40% gun around to shoot every now and again. Also, I think way too much emphasis is placed on 100% originality. I think any alterations to a firearm that is 100 yrs old that are performed today are less desireable (although nothing wrong, in my opinion, with adding a tang sight to a vintage firearm that never had one before). However, what I mean about 100% originality, and the emphasis with regards to it, is that, for example , if one had a particular firearm that had a receiver sight added to it within a few years of manufacture of that firearm, and the receiver sight was added at that time, it is a vintage sight, appropriate for the firearm, but maybe dates a few years after the manufacture of that firearm. The patent date on that sight may even post-date the firearm by a few years. A clear example of modifications made, at that time, to improve the firearm for the user’s intended purposes. No harm done, I think, but others may not. If the original owner had known that originality would be over-emphasized in this day and age, and if he had predicted the exponential increase in Winchesters over time, I am sure that, not only would he not modify or "improve" in any way, shape, or form, he would buy Winchesters, as often as he could, salt them away in a safe, keep them pristine, and then, if not around to reap the gains (unless extreme longevity is a possibility), create wealth beyond belief for his heirs. Obviously, most or all folks from the golden age of Winchesters failed to predict this, which is why after-market improvements were made. Again, if during the era, I see no problem with this.
Before I got sidetracked in my last post, I meant to say isn’t it better that a young person is interested in a vintage firearm and buys what he can afford, given that a lot of the pristine stuff is unaffordable these days. Better that he buys this 50% firearm and enjoys it, given that the cost of this Winchester (such as a Winchester 1886 in .45-70, in 50% condition) may approach that of other options. These other options, of course, being the multitude of plastic junk out there, such as AR-15’s, that might be had for the same amount, or even less, than the vintage Winchester.
there is nothing wrong with a vintage firearm with honest wear that is only 40 or 50%.
I think it’s neat to find a gun in the condition you describe on the exterior, but one like that with good mechanics and bore is a big plus to me. I also have a lot of respect for the time some collectors have put in trying to find that high original condition gun in a particular caliber or configuration too. I guess you could say there’s something for everyone in this.
Brad
if one had a particular firearm that had a receiver sight added to it within a few years of manufacture of that firearm, and the receiver sight was added at that time, it is a vintage sight, appropriate for the firearm, but maybe dates a few years after the manufacture of that firearm. The patent date on that sight may even post-date the firearm by a few years. A clear example of modifications made, at that time, to improve the firearm for the user’s intended purposes. No harm done, I think, but others may not.
I forgot to add, after giving it some thought, a Lyman receiver sight of the period added to a Model 1895/95 fits this example perfectly in my mind. I personally wouldn’t have a problem with it if the workmanship was good and it looked like it had been done awhile back. I’ve passed on some 1895s I was interested in lately because they didn’t have the Lyman 21 and would prefer that for longer ranges over the open iron sights on my other 95.
Brad
I can’t think of a better time and place to report the following:
Just received my ‘Rampant Colt’ CCA Journal, and lo and behold, there’s a beautiful, well-written, full-color ad for WACA, including the particulars on joining, and the benefits available to members.
This pretty well addresses any questions concerning relevance and so-called exclusivity among our (WACA) members.
I belong to many brand-specific firearms organizations, and I’m proud to thank whoever initiated this ad.
It’ll do a lot to further our hobby.
Don
January 26, 2011
Offline
Good point Don,
On a similar note, I ran up to Billings, MT about a month ago which is about 200 miles from here. My wife wanted to do some Xmas shopping and it so conveniently worked out that there was a gun show in town that weekend (which gave me a perfect excuse to avoid the mall all together). This is a little larger show than what I get to go to around here, so I was hoping to see more Winchesters and other antiques. Lo and behold, the first table within ten feet of the door was Clarence Parks, our WACA president. Along with some good looking rifles he had for sale, he and his wife were promoting membership to WACA with signs, calendars, copies of The Collector, and membership application forms. I had forgotten that Clarence lives in Montana and was pleasantly surprised to see his display when I stepped in the door.
~Gary~
Don & Gary:
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful remarks. As info, a similar WACA color ad appears in the quarterly Remington Collectors Journal on page 22.
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
I too appreciate the remarks. In addition to what Rick mentioned, we have similar WACA color ads in the Arms Heritage e-magazine and in the Sharps Collectors Association journal. We also have a Cody Show ad in the Colorado Gun Collector’s journal, and general show ads in the Big Show Journal. And from time to time, we feature a Winchester collecting article in the GunsInternational.com e-newsletter with a link that goes to our site.
Rob Kassab
Director & Executive Editor
Winchester Arms Collectors Association
To greatly enhance your collecting experience, join WACA. It's only $35 / year (eMembership), and you'll be able to directly upload photos on the forum, receive the e-version of our quarterly magazine and have full online access to our magazine archive database, along with many other member benefits such as 15 additional record searches for Cody Firearms Museum members. It’s easy to join at http://winchestercollector.org/register/.
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