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Louis Luttrell said
Hi JWA-It would not be much of a loss to me, so let me know. Big Larry is a good guy!!! I have two spare 48WH sights. The one in the box is the later model identical to what was for sale on Ebay. The other (that I intend to keep) is a post ’47 half block, but the slightly earlier version that has the (part cut away) leaf spring on the block. That would be correct for a ’47-’50-ish Target rifle and I’m still looking for post-47/pre-52 M70 target rifles in unusual chamberings, e.g. a .270 WCF. The later sight would be useful only if I ever bought a late Bull Gun, which is not on my ‘to-do’ list at present.
I do not think I ever took the butt plate off SN 351439. I’ll have to look when I get the chance.
As for dovetails on the under side of target barrels in general, it seem to me to be ‘hit-or-miss’. Like target block holes drilled on top of pre-war 24″ MH 375 MAGNUM barrels. Or rear sight dovetails cut into the barrel boss of National Match rifles. Superfluous manufacturing step, but not unusual.
As it happens, the M70 Target rifles (MH barrel) that I have do not have dovetails cut underneath. This includes examples spanning the range from SN 3339 to 499381. BUT… my understanding is that some Target barrels were dovetailed and I don’t make anything of it at all. As I said, my Van Orden barrel is not dovetailed and the fore end bedding screw is a dummy. From ’36 on Winchester advertised their Target rifle barrels as ‘free floated’, meaning that they did not have a functional fore end bedding screw (not necessarily that they did not have the dovetail).
On the other hand, the barrel bedding screw dovetail on the 24″ MH barrel 375 MAGNUMs was functional, i.e. had the escutcheon installed on the barrel mated to a bedding screw through the stock. A couple other odd-ball non-catalogued pre-war ramped straight taper barrel M70s I have (chambered for things other than 375 MAGNUM) also have dovetails and functional bedding screws. So sometimes the factory milled the slots and sometimes they did/did not use them. It raises no ‘red flags’ for me either way.
Let us know how the rifle does on the range. I’ve never fired mine…
Lou
Lou, let me just say, you are on heck of a guy. It’s guys like you that make gun collecting such fun. I too give up my parts when needed. Most are just spares I picked up on the road to my collecting. BTW, if you send me an email at [email protected] I will send you copies of stuff sold at the 1954 NM’s by Evaluators Ltd. I got this stuff from my friend Peter Senich. Oh, and another thing, the US on the receiver of my Van Orden was ground off, probably by some paranoid person. Jeff looked at it and you can still barely make the US out. I cannot complain as the rifle was a gift from a very dear friend. Again, let me thank you for the offer of the sight to my friend Jeff. He is a great guy and I am very proud to call him my friend. Big Larry
You guys are all great and I consider Larry a very good friend also. You guys are choking me up so let’s move on to a less emotional subject.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
WAHHHH!!! You are a good guy and we all know it. Thanks for all you do. Big Larry
JWA said
Jwm94,It was a real pleasure chatting with you at Cody and I really appreciate the very informative history of the Van Orden family (all three generations) which you passed on to me over coffee. I believe you are correct that is the same James R. Athey and really appreciate the starting point for the research as that helps tremendously!
Best Regards,
Jeff
Jeff,
Likewise on the pleasure of meeting you as I have been looking forward to just such a chance for years now!!! Maybe we can meet up once again someday and continue our Winchester talk! I can’t wait to get a copy of your book when they become available!!!!!!!
James
Hi Big Larry-
I’ve really been interested in Jeff’s Van Orden project, and I’d be happy to send the parts if he wants them. They’re not that hard to find (compared to some things) and the late 48WH (like the one on SN 351439) is something I am not likely to “need” unless I become insane enough to buy a late Bull Gun that is missing its receiver sight.
Since parts are cheaper than rifles, much of the fun I have is searching for M70 component parts that I “might need” someday. Like Albree Keepers… Know what they are? They were standard equipment on M70 target models in 1937 only, and catalogued as an accessory for a while after that. I’ve found two (and only two) in 5 years searching (one is now on the sling of my 1st year Target Rifle), but I found the diagram for the US Patent issued to Albree on the USPTO website, which was also fun.
Another reason for my vicarious interest in Jeff’s project is that one of my own current “restoration” projects is a 1942 M70 Target Rifle in 257 Roberts. Just put it together today, with (I believe) all original/original finish parts. Had to dig deep into my parts chest to get the missing pieces for that one. Thinking I’ll post pics of the project later.
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Used to have a near mint 1942 dated M70 that was US Property marked. Story was, the rifle was given as a prize in a Army match of some kind in the very early 50’s. Electric penciled exactly like my US marked M52-C. I sold it to the guy that gave me the Van Orden a few years later.
I have owned many US Sniper rifles, including the only known, fully documented, 1903A1/Unertl in its original REA shipping box. Now, I collect Winchester levers and mostly the 22 series. A lot cheaper than Sniper rifles.
My BIL has a substantial hoard of parts and though I used to make fun of him for all those parts, I have gone to him several times to get some. He is always really good about it too.
I am not up on M70’s. I have owned a few in my day, but now, I have little interest in them. Thanks Lou. Big Larry
Ok, here is an update;
It is still too hot to go out to sight in the rifle but it is beginning to look more like an original Van Orden. Seewin had a properly matching 48WH (thank you Sir!) and it is wearing a Lyman 77 front with an AK height base. The front base has the dimples (thanks for the info Lou!) and the rear base is the only thing incorrect. I am headed to the Denver show next weekend and will keep my eyes open for the proper rear base with dimples.
Still left to do is restoring the bolt (removing the bluing and properly finishing the bolt handle) and removing the bedding compound from the stock barrel screw hole and installing a blank screw. That is about all I am willing to do at this point since I don’t know enough about the early Van Ordens to know what is correct and incorrect.
Thanks again for everyone’s help, I REALLY appreciate it! Here are some current pictures;
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA-
Looking good!!! Keep the updates coming, please!!!
You saw the pics of the inside view of the dummy bedding screw in the fore end, right? These rifles came from Evaluators Ltd with a 1 1/4″ M1907 style sling. Mine had one when I got it, but I don’t know if it’s the original. It has two rivets on the frogs and stitched keepers. No maker marked on the sling. I do not have detail pics of the sling that was on mine, just the RIA photo of the lot.
The literature that came with these rifles specifically recommended the Lyman Super Targetspot (not supplied), so you’ve got a lot of choice as to magnification.
Looking forward to the range report. Given the original owner, that bedding job on the recoil lug might have been done by an armorer at Fort Bragg, and the thing should shoot great!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
November 7, 2015
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Wow, awesome thread about a rifle I’d never heard of. Have nothing to add but my thanks and congrats for a project nicely done.
JWA,
I’m thinking like Lou on the bedding note.
I’d opt for a 20 power Lyman were I to scope it.
Good luck!!!!
James
Thanks to all for the kind words and encouragement!
James,
I agree and think the 20x Super Targetspot is about right for that rifle, although if I ran across a 30x at a good price I wouldn’t hesitate…..
Lou,
I noticed yours has the hollow bolt handle and mine is solid although it is an early 1953 rifle. I know they were slow to implement the drilled handle in the featherweights but this Van Orden got the earlier handle as well. Just thought that was interesting.
Regarding the sling, I guess there are 3 plausible types which could have possibly been provided;
1) A Winchester supplied sling (with 2 rivet hooks and diamond stapled keepers)
2) A “mil-spec” 1907 (with 3 rivet hooks and sewn keepers)
3) A commercial “1907 style” sling (like yours with the 2 rivet hooks and sewn keepers)
I will do some more research and comparison with other Van Orden rifles to see if there is a common theme on the slings and let you know the results. Yours may be original as supplied from Evaluator’s Ltd. but I would like to know for sure. Personally, for shooting, I prefer a Turner 1907 mil-spec sling but since none of the above 3 types of sling are hard to obtain I would like to be as accurate as possible with the restoration.
Best Regards,
Jeff
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Jeff-
You’re right about the bolt knob. Even some early FWTs (which were the reason behind the change) have solid bolt knobs. I have a 200 SWIFT Target rifle (SN 354793) that has a solid knob. Even later SN than my Van Orden…
Let us know what you find out about the sling. I have no idea. The sling on my gun was on it when I bought it, but that sure-as-hell does not mean it’s the one that came from Evaluators Ltd!!! The literature with the gun never specified.
I am attaching copies of the literature (including some product brochures) that accompanied these rifles. This stuff is courtesy of a poster on ‘Sniper’s Hide’ forum. I do not have original literature with my rifle. I already posted the description of the ‘Sniper Rifle’ that was on the outside of the envelope that enclosed this stuff. NOTE that the ‘Special Target’ referred to in some of this was the Evaluators Ltd version that came in a Marksman stock, not the factory special order special dimension ‘sniper’ stock.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou,
Thanks for the additional images, I have been browsing Sniper’s Hide as well and assume you are “Winchester70” over there? I found lots of great background info there and since I am not a “sniper” rifle collector have been doing lots of educational reading.
Regarding the slings, I am just a tad bit OCD and already have all 3 types sitting in my spare parts bins, I am just torn as to which one to put on it for historical accuracy. After spending a few hours surfing the internet I don’t think I am any closer to knowing. In general it seems as if the WWII vintage 70’s got the green canvas M1 sling or the 1907 from military supply stock which makes sense. Most of the pictures of the commercial Van Ordens show a variety of slings that were no doubt the result of an upgrade by the end user. Most are 3 rivet 1907 style slings but that was the norm for competition during that time period so that is not surprising. I found one with the standard Winchester 1 1/4″ sling but since the serial number wasn’t provided it may not be a Van Orden but simply a Target even though the owner stated it was a Van Orden. I have not found another one with a 2 rivet 1907 style sling like yours yet though. Are you sure the hooks only have 2 rivets? I was hoping the RIA auction with the boxed version would have or show the sling but it is not depicted or mentioned.
The only real satisfaction I got today was finding several more Van Orden rifles near my serial number with checkered sporting style stocks, including a photo of 272958 (mine is 220290) on page 100 in the “The One-Round War”. I am getting more and more comfortable with the idea my checkered stock is original to the rifle even though it is not mentioned specifically in the Evaluator’s Ltd. literature.
Again, thanks for all your help and support. Will give everyone an update when I get it to the range.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
After reading this entire topic, it makes me happy to know that I am not alone… you fellows are as detailed oriented (OCD) as I am, and possibly more so !!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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In some endeavors extreme attention to detail is not a disorder, it’s a requirement.
Congratulations Jeff on your increased interest in mod 70. Win 22’s in original condition are getting scarcer all the time and I don’t need the competition. Just kidding.?
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
FWIW… This is a photo of another mid-50s (sold May 1955) Van Orden Sniper (SN 333437) that I found on the internet back when I was researching mine. It has the uncheckered oil finish stock like SN 351439 (beneath for comparison). I can’t make out the underside of the fore end on 333437.
I do not know when Evaluators Ltd changed the specification of the order from regular checkered stock to uncheckered one with different butt stock dimensions. Maybe if we can find the owners of enough of these we can narrow it down a bit!!!
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Yes… why do you ask?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Louis Luttrell said
FWIW… This is a photo of another mid-50s (sold May 1955) Van Orden Sniper (SN 333437) that I found on the internet back when I was researching mine. It has the uncheckered oil finish stock like SN 351439 (beneath for comparison). I can’t make out the underside of the fore end on 333437.
I do not know when Evaluators Ltd changed the specification of the order from regular checkered stock to uncheckered one with different butt stock dimensions. Maybe if we can find the owners of enough of these we can narrow it down a bit!!!
Cheers,
Lou
For some reason I cannot post pics on this Forum. I used to be able to on the old format.
My # 272958 US marked Van Orden is exactly like yours. Some paranoid dumb #@# ground the US markings off the receiver.
As for the question on the slings, I do not see where they actually came with them. Surplus M1907 military slings were available real cheap at that time, I would imagine many of these rifles wound up with WW2 dated M1907 slings. I have a copy of the price list for items shipped to the NM’s in 1954 from Evaluators. Big Larry
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