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WTB: Van Orden Model 70's and Model 70's Serial Number Range 41,000-50,000
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Maxwtalbott
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May 28, 2016 - 4:33 pm
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Looking to buy with cash. Please indicate serial number, condition, and price.

Thanks!

Max

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May 28, 2016 - 11:03 pm
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Max-

The only WACA members I am aware of that have acknowledged owning s/n correct Van Orden Snipers are myself and Big Larry.  For background, see my post started January 7, 2015 that has a link to pics of mine…  Not selling at this time.

There was another Van Orden Sniper with documented s/n that sold on RIA last year for not much money (relatively speaking), but I do not know where it went.  They show up from time to time, often not recognized as Van Orden serial numbers, and interspersed with very close s/n 30-06 target models that are not in the Van Orden shop records (as published in ‘Death from Afar – Vol 1’).  I’ve always assumed this is b/c Winchester factory work orders called for runs of a certain number of a certain style (leading to a bunch of target rifles with very close serial numbers) of which some would be grabbed at random for the special dimension stocks to fill the Van Orden orders.

As for rifles in s/n range 41000-50000 (corresponding to the WWII US Military purchases), I presume you mean either to get 30-06 standard grades in that range or are looking to find one of the genuine serial numbers recorded in Chandler.  Sorry I cannot help either way, as I only have two M70s in that range and neither is a 30-06 standard.

Good luck with the hunt… Laugh

Lou

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May 28, 2016 - 11:37 pm
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Yep. My Van Orden is much later @ 272958 shipped in August 1954 to the NM’s for the US Army at Camp Perry. Fully documented.  Big Larry

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May 29, 2016 - 4:02 am
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Lou and Larry,

Thanks so much for the replies and congratulations on having these great pieces!

You are correct that, in addition to a Van Orden M70, I am looking for one of the serial number 41,000-50,000 M70’s as listed in Chandler’s Volume 1.

Interestingly, I saw one not to long ago auctioned by CMP that was NOT specifically listed in the Chandler serial numbers (however, it was in the serial number range) but which was described by CMP as being one of those M70’s purchased by the government early in WW2.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again and best regards,

Max 

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May 29, 2016 - 5:33 pm
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Max-

I’m afraid I can’t be much help, as I’m not really a student of the ‘military M70s’.  Pretty much all I know is what is published in Chandler and Senich.  I think there are some people over on the ‘Sniper’s Hide’ forum who know more.  To me the Van Orden Sniper is just a verifiable example of a ‘factory special order’ M70, and mine (s/n 351439), was one of the civilian-sold Van Orden Snipers that as far as I know has no military connection at all.

M70-Van-Orden-Sniper-composite-1.jpgImage Enlarger

As for the authenticity of those ‘close but no cigar’ serial numbers, I guess it depends on how much faith one has in the accuracy/completeness of the information published in Chandler.  The published Van Orden serial numbers are supposed to have come from Evaluator’s Ltd shop records and I suspect they are pretty complete.  You’ll notice that there are often ‘gaps’ of two, three or five ‘missing’ numbers, within otherwise consecutive blocks of Van Orden serial numbers.  One thing I do for amusement is check the s/n of any 1950’s 30-06 M70 Target model (G7044C) that shows up at auction against the Evaluator’s Ltd list, and at least twice I’ve found Target rifles with serial numbers that fall into one of those ‘gaps’.  The way I interpret that is that the rifles used to fill the Van Orden orders (which had certain non-standard features) were pulled as needed from a larger G7044C production run, as opposed to unlisted numbers being genuine Van Orden rifles that the shop forgot to record.  Again, comes back to whether the records are complete.  Peter Senich may have a much better idea of that.

I do not know the source of serial numbers for the 41000-50000 range rifles published in Chandler.  I suspect that is not a complete list, but really have no information.  If the CMP had documentation to support that a M70 30-06 standard rifle not recorded in Chandler was in fact government purchased, I think I’d believe them.

Best,

Lou

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May 29, 2016 - 10:49 pm
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Lou,

I really appreciate your insight and advice. 

If I come across anything in my gun or information search, I will be sure to post it here to the WACA forum.

Thanks again and best regards,

Max

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July 6, 2016 - 2:26 am
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I hope the original poster is still looking at this site.  (Or anybody else who wants a Van Orden Sniper CHEAP!!!

Look at Guns International #100721888

Van-Orden-220290-1.jpgImage Enlarger

The rifle is SN 220290.  According to Evaluator’s Ltd records it was sold to a James R. Athey in 3/53.  If you look closely at the hole spacing on the Redfield mount and bridge of the action (and the other photos I didn’t post here), it appears to be a standard length action with a clip loading slot (so the Magnum length scope base would fit).  Correct for a type III target action cat no 7044C.

For anyone interested it is a bargain at $1299… IMHO the seller does not know what he has.   

Funny how these just ‘turn up’ here and there.  If I needed (another) one I’d buy it now…

Not sure about the (checkered) varnish finish standard stock, but the ‘in box’ one sold on RIA recently (that was also an early Van Orden Sniper and not recognized as such) also had this stock (as opposed to the unchecked oil finish special dimension stock on later ones)…

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July 7, 2016 - 1:12 am
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Interesting. I’ve recently gotten into Model 70’s and came across this listing and then ended up back here searching for further information. Obviously not a WWII by serial range, but perhaps a later civilian? And I suppose the checkered stock could indeed be original given Louis’ comment above (as opposed to the typical plain ‘sniper’ stock). Pardon my naïveté as Van Orden research is fresh to me.

Where are the definitive records of SN available (Evaluators Ltd)? And what optic would be period correct to make this a complete shooter?

 

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

Steve

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July 7, 2016 - 1:48 am
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Louis, I am curious about that one as well.  I have heard mention of someone (I don’t remember who) having the Evaluator’s Ltd index cards which described the rifle as-shipped configurations.  Is that true and is that information available for each rifle? 

Thanks!

Regards,

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July 7, 2016 - 2:39 pm
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The most readily available source of the serial number data is Chandler’s “Death from Afar – Vol 1”.  I’ve posted (without permission) the pages below, so if Iron Brigade Armory (the publisher) protests I will need to take them down.  This information was supposed to have been complied from the shop’s index cards that JWA mentions.  As for the location of those cards, I do not know.  Maybe Peter Senich has them or knows who does.  Big Larry also may know.

Van-Order-SN-1.jpgImage EnlargerVan-Order-SN-2.jpgImage Enlarger

You’ll note that SN 220290 is one of the 90 or so civilian sold Van Orden Snipers, and that it is a relatively early one, sold in ’53.  The one I have, SN 351439, was from ’55.  

Van-Orden-p1.jpgImage Enlarger

As for the stock, the composite of my rifle above also includes a reproduction of part of the original paperwork that came with these rifles.  Note the description of the stock as a “sniper stock” (not the Marksman stock – Evaluator’s Ltd. called the ones with Marksman stocks their “Special Target” model), that has special butt stock dimensions, and is uncheckered with an oil finish.  That fit’s the photo of SN 351439.  The drop, pitch and LOP on my rifle matches the Springfield ’03 National Match (or the Winchester Marksman butt stock), and is quite different from the Standard low comb stock.

Regarding SN 220290.  To my eye (from the photos) the barreled action matches Cat No 7044C (30-06 Target Model).  It is missing the Lyman 48WH receiver sight, Lyman 77R in AK base globe front sight, and the Lyman type scope mounting blocks.  The action appears to have the clip loading slot (unique to 30-06 target models after 1946), which is why the non-factory Redfield base on the gun is of the H&H Magnum length (JR-70AM).

The stock is the curiosity, since it is pretty clearly a standard stock in terms of dimensions and finish.  Two things lead me to think it might be original to the rifle:  

First, an identical rifle that by SN was Van Orden (SN 220285) was sold on RIA December 2015 as Lot 295: http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/66/lid/295.   It was also an “early” Van Orden Sniper undoubtedly from the same batch as SN 220290.  

Second, the stock on SN 220290 has two “owner modifications” that I can see (I cannot see if it has been free floated or bedded, of course).  First is that the fore end barrel bedding screw hole has been filled in with some kind of resin.  That hole was superfluous on the Van Orden rifles, b/c G7044C does not have a dovetail cut in the bottom of the barrel for the bedding screw escutcheon.  As made, they were fit with a “dummy” screw in that hole for cosmetic purposes.  Second is that one can see that the action once had a receiver sight and the small dent made by the elevator staff has been filled in.  Those marks match what would be left if you removed a Lyman 48WH.

So my GUESS is that the rifle on Guns International was part of the same Evaluators Ltd order as the one sold on RIA.  If the barrel channel is not free floated and not glass bedded, then nothing “irreparable” has been done to the gun.  If someone were interested I think it would be worth a call to the seller to get the answers to these questions.

What does anyone else think?

Cheers,

Lou

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July 7, 2016 - 3:20 pm
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Thanks Lou,

That’s really interesting and I learned a lot. I emailed the seller with an indication that I was interested in purchasing but unfortunately I missed the opportunity as the seller responded that it had been sold. My impression, as noted earlier in the thread, was that the seller didn’t know what he had, but the conversation didn’t continue since it was gone already.

 

I love this forum. Thanks guys,

 

Steve

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July 7, 2016 - 6:43 pm
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Lou,

I really appreciate the information and also that you posted a heads-up about the listing.  When I saw your post I immediately emailed Mike Bromley the same day then called and purchased the rifle (sorry Steve).   That was the primary reason I said I was interested in your opinion on the stock, because I had already bought it thinking it could be returned to original configuration but of course without it in my hand I cannot tell if any other owner modifications have been done in the barrel channel.  I am hoping the dummy screw (and escutcheon?) are just missing and I can replace them.  I am currently looking for a Lyman 48WH that is period correct for the rifle (I am at Cody now and will check the show) but the bases may be problematic.  Any idea if they had a number or other identification on them?

I will post additional information and pictures after I get the rifle in hand.

Steve,

I feel bad that you expressed interest after I had purchased it and hope there are no hard feelings.  To give you the whole story; I stopped at Big Larry’s house on Tuesday on my drive up to Cody and he pulled his VERY nice papered Van Orden Sniper out of the safe for me to look at.  After checking it over I just KNEW I had to have one but the chances of me finding one were slim.  The gods were smiling on me that day because I stopped for the night at a hotel, logged in and saw Lou’s post about the Van Orden on GunsInternational and jumped on it immediately.  It was truly a lucky day for me by getting to see Larry’s fine rifle in person and then purchasing one for myself.  Hopefully you will stumble upon an even nicer one for less money.

Best Regards to both of you.

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July 7, 2016 - 7:34 pm
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Of course no hard feelings. Happy it went to someone who appreciates it for what it is. I saw it several days ago as I have recently become interested in M70’s but didn’t purchase right away as I was still green on identifying variations and came across this thread coincidentally as I was researching. 

I may not have got the rifle but I got one heck of an education, many hours of reading and learning, and a confidence boost for the next one that comes along. 

Happy just to be in the mix.

Steve

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July 7, 2016 - 9:05 pm
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JWA said
Lou,

I really appreciate the information and also that you posted a heads-up about the listing.  When I saw your post I immediately emailed Mike Bromley the same day then called and purchased the rifle (sorry Steve).   That was the primary reason I said I was interested in your opinion on the stock, because I had already bought it thinking it could be returned to original configuration but of course without it in my hand I cannot tell if any other owner modifications have been done in the barrel channel.  I am hoping the dummy screw (and escutcheon?) are just missing and I can replace them.  I am currently looking for a Lyman 48WH that is period correct for the rifle (I am at Cody now and will check the show) but the bases may be problematic.  Any idea if they had a number or other identification on them?

I will post additional information and pictures after I get the rifle in hand.

Steve,

I feel bad that you expressed interest after I had purchased it and hope there are no hard feelings.  To give you the whole story; I stopped at Big Larry’s house on Tuesday on my drive up to Cody and he pulled his VERY nice papered Van Orden Sniper he bought from Peter Senich out of the safe for me to look at.  After checking it over I just KNEW I had to have one but the chances of me finding one were slim.  The gods were smiling on me that day because I stopped for the night at a hotel, logged in and saw Lou’s post about the Van Orden on GunsInternational and jumped on it immediately.  It was truly a lucky day for me by getting to see Larry’s fine rifle in person and then purchasing one for myself.  Hopefully you will stumble upon an even nicer one for less money.

Best Regards to both of you.  

Didn’t buy it Jeff.

The rifle was a gift from Lt. Herb Rosenbaum Trussville PD. He got all the info on it from Perter Senich. BTW. When I got it, it had a Viet Nam period Lyman STS on it, which was totaled out. Parsons wanted over $800 to fix it, so I junked it.   Larry

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July 7, 2016 - 9:27 pm
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Big Larry said

Didn’t buy it Jeff.

The rifle was a gift from Lt. Herb Rosenbaum Trussville PD. He got all the info on it from Perter Senich. BTW. When I got it, it had a Viet Nam period Lyman STS on it, which was totaled out. Parsons wanted over $800 to fix it, so I junked it.   Larry  

My mistake, thanks for the correction.  My head was spinning that day after looking at all your nice Winchesters so I got confused.

Best Regards,

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July 7, 2016 - 11:00 pm
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JWA-

I’m glad somebody got the rifle knowing it’s provenance (source, original owner).

Regarding the stock, if you haven’t looked at it, check the photo I posed in the thread “Pre-64 M70 Varmint Stock” in response to Fielding Turner’s question about dummy barrel bedding screws.  That photo shows the inletting of SN 351439, and what the dummy bedding screw looked like on the inside.  The pic of FLT’s early Varmint rifle in the same thread appears to show the same treatment.

The questions I’d’ve had were whether the barrel channel was free floated or glass bedded (since it’s obvious somebody applied a filler externally).  The Van Orden rifles, as far as I have been able to determine, were not glass bedded by either the factory or Evaluator’s Ltd.  The barrel channel of mine is a bit looser fitting than I am used to on a M70 Target Model (you can slide a piece of paper between the stock and barrel without it binding much), but I do not know if that represents something the shop did while “tuning” these rifles prior to sale or something the owner (in my case Victor Dawson) did once he took delivery.

Even considering the “worst case” scenario for 220290, i.e. glass bedded, I’d still consider it a good buy.  (There were only about 90 of these civilian-sold Van Orden Snipers – 4X rarer than 300 Savages – just not the same ‘collector cache’).  If I buy the argument that the stocks on SN 220285 (the RIA gun) and 220290 are original to their respective rifles, then the stock is a regular oval tang M70 standard rifle stock with the barrel channel opened up for the 24″ MH Target barrel.  If one were inclined to ‘restore’ the rifle to original, it would only require getting a M70 standard stock from the early to mid-50s (not too hard), modifying the barrel channel, and treating the bedding screw as pictured.  It would run up the investment some, but the end result would be as close as a restorer could come to original.

As to sights, there is currently a correct later Lyman 48WH posted on Ebay.  The Lyman 77R front is not that hard to find.  the double dovetail block for the front sight is a flat top Lyman ‘AK’.  If you don’t have one, let me know b/c I have some and will give you one.

The telescope sight blocks are the standard Lyman type blocks of the era – barrel and (front) receiver ring.  Front block is 0.360″ high, rear (equivalent of a Lyman or Unertl ‘U’ block) is 0.185″ high.  I’ve been told that the target blocks on Winchesters were not ‘coded’ on the underside, but personally have not made much of an issue of that detail (given how frequently target blocks were removed/replaced on these guns).  The bigger issue (to me) is “dimples”…  The early target blocks have a ‘Unertl crescent’ on the right side and a “Winchester dimple” on the left (needed to install the ancient Winchester A5 scope and its brethren).  In the 50s there seems to have been a gradual transition from blocks with “dimples’ to those without, such that pre-war targets have them, post ’55 rifles almost never do, and everything in between is hit or miss.  In fact (funny), I’ve got a later M70 target rifle (that I think is untampered with) that has one block with dimple, and one without…

My OCD would insist that a ’53 Van Orden Sniper of mine would have blocks with dimples (which are IMHO much harder to find than those without), but I would not question a rifle that did not have them.

Hope this helps…

Lou

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July 7, 2016 - 11:34 pm
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Hi Lou,

Thanks – all of that info helps tremendously!  I had already found the 48WH on eBay and placed a low bid on it yesterday since I was not sure it was the correct vintage but will try to win it now that I know it is the one I need.

The pictures of the dummy screw arraignment will be a big help since I will have to duplicate the same.

I already have several 77R’s in my sight box as well as a few AK bases but I really appreciate your generosity anyway, that was a nice offer.

For the scope blocks I will go with dimples per your suggestion. 

Regarding the stock, I suspect it has been glass bedded.  It is hard for me to imagine someone mixing up a batch of bedding compound to just fill a screw hole and the rear sight indentation.  My guess is that there was other evil afoot that day but won’t know until it gets here……

Big Larry is working on getting current contact info for Peter Senich so I can contact him to see if there is any additional info on this and the other early commercial Van Ordens. 

I will keep everyone posted regarding the results.

Again, thanks for all your help as I am not really a Model 70 guy.  All of the 70’s I own are simply for hunting, this one will be for targets (if it is still accurate).

Best Regards,

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July 8, 2016 - 1:03 am
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Final bit-

I’ve attached three detail photos of SN 351439 showing the front/rear sights and the target blocks:

Right-side-action.jpgImage EnlargerBarrel-stamp-2.jpgImage EnlargerFront-Sight.jpgImage Enlarger

Of course I cannot be sure these are the original parts, but they match the information I’ve been able to uncover.  Note the late 48WH has the ‘white arrows’ on the knobs indicating direction of adjustment.

Curious thing about the RIA rifle 220285… (Besides the fact that it is missing the receiver sight).  If you look at the scope blocks, they are installed ‘backwards’.  ‘Crescents’ on the left.  I’ve guessed that maybe the rifle belonged to a left handed shooter who wanted to reverse the side of the windage adjustment knob (???).  Or else somebody just put them on wrong. Wink

Please post some pics of the project when you’re happy with it, and share any info you get from Peter Senich.  I’m still trying to learn about these rifles.  Being able to get a copy of the Evaluators Ltd index card on your own rifle would be really cool…

Best,

Lou

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July 8, 2016 - 4:26 am
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I know it’s not a Van Orden and I dont mean to derail the thread, but as long as there is attention here…

Did Winchester ever ship Model 70 with Kohlmorgen scope and Stith mount? I ask because all this discussion made me dig my 1951 M70 out of the safe (176947). I wouldn’t think so, but looking at a bunch of M70s lately I’ve seen a number in this configuration, one of which looked so identical to mine it made me look up the serial number and check the safe to make sure mine was still where it belonged. 

Maybe it was just a popular setup at the time?

 

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July 8, 2016 - 1:26 pm
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Steve-

I am not aware of any specific production of scoped M70s by the factory, although one could order just about anything and they would put it onto the gun.

Which Kollmorgen scope?  Is it also marked ‘Stith’?  Kollmorgen Optical Co.’s initial foray into commercial rifle scopes was under a contract from Stith to produce scopes both with and without internal adjustments (that was going on in the early 50’s and would correspond to the production date of your rifle).  By the mid-50s, Kollmorgen began producing their “Bear Cub” line of scopes under their own name (no longer had ‘Stith’ marked on the scope).  In 1959 or so, Redfield bought the scope manufacturing tooling from Kollmorgen and moved it from Brooklyn to Denver, where for a while they then produced the same scope as the Redfield Bear Cub.  These were all 26 mm tube diameter scopes.

Also, which Stith mount?  The no-drill Install-It-Yourself type that attached via the rear sight dovetail on the barrel and left side receiver sight holes, or the Stith ‘Master Mount’ with built-in windage and elevation adjustments (for non-adjustable scope).

Have a pic handy?

Loy

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