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My honest opinion and with all sincerity, and I believe if you look yourself into this further you will also find, that the carbine was not in fact engraved by John Ulrich. I don’t believe that is his mark. I also don’t believe this is his style of engraving or period engraving.
That said I will admit, I have been wrong about many things in the past, and this is merely my humble opinion.
Have you had an engraving expert look at the carbine? Or any other notable firearms expert?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I agree. The quality of engraving is not of the quality one would expect from Ulrich, and so the OPs carbine requires further research. The quality of the scrolls can be compared with a known example:
And here’s another good example:
Discus420 said
I will try to find someone to authenticate it the 2 links above are not the same person if this were a JU John Ulrich One is Conrad F Ulrich’s work the other is Herman Ulrich’s work . John Studied under Conrad F Ulrich the Father Now I just have to get Madis’s email address and have him look at my pictures!!!!!!Seriously If anyone known’s how to get an engraved Winchester authenticated please let me know I cant sell it until I know what it is
I’m assuming your joking, as George passed on to Glory in 2004. So if anyone responds from [email protected], it won’t be THE George Madis.
I would contact Pauline Muerrle and see what she has to say.
https://paulinemuerrle.com/factory-engraving-records/
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Well that was kinda quick. I barely even had time to respond.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
The barrel on your carbine has the late front sight and the rear sight dove tail position is also late, after s/n 152,000. I have a John Ulrich engraved 1866 in the same s/n range and it is marked behind the trigger with his tiny stamp. The receiver elevator bore is rectangular without the front notches, a little early for the serial number on the lower tang. The wood fit is not good, you might have a composite gun. T/R
Thanks Maverick I will check this out and I did not know George passed sorry to hear that
Yes I took it down IM not trying to pass something off I have contacted Pauline I would love to get a letter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looks like no records on 1866 just like the Cody museum
There are what appear to be vise marks on the left side of the frame at the front edge and definitely marks on both sides of the barrel, just behind the rear sight. As for the rifle listed at Rock Island, notice that the serial number was changed from 96222 to 96022. Odd.
I am not an expert on most things but I do know for a fact that there are more engraved 66’s than Winchester ever had engraved. Be very careful of guns in the non letterable range.
Rifle is listed on GI now. Wondering if any experts evaluated its originality?
Chuck said
I am not an expert on most things but I do know for a fact that there are more engraved 66’s than Winchester ever had engraved. Be very careful of guns in the non letterable range.
noted in “The Winchester Book” by Madis that “A comparative count of engraved guns, comparing early models 66 with the later numbers, indicates that the early models 66, prior to serial numbers 125,000, were engraved at the factory in such large comparative numbers that the total ratio of engraved guns is brought to a much larger figure. Models 66, therefore, made prior to 1875 and numbers near 125,000 were much more frequently engraved than numbers after 125,000″ (P126).
So yes Chuck you are correct ! There are more 1866’s engraved than any other model. and more before 1875 also. mine was made in 1874 and is before 125,000
Deerhunter Thanks for posting my listing and No I have not found an expert seems its all a matter of opinion because there are no letters for the 1866. I cant wait the 9 months minimum to get it into the RIA .
deerhunter said
Rifle is listed on GI now. Wondering if any experts evaluated its originality?
The only expert information I have is this
noted in “The Winchester Book” by Madis that “A comparative count of engraved guns, comparing early models 66 with the later numbers, indicates that the early models 66, prior to serial numbers 125,000, were engraved at the factory in such large comparative numbers that the total ratio of engraved guns is brought to a much larger figure. Models 66, therefore, made prior to 1875 and numbers near 125,000 were much more frequently engraved than numbers after 125,000″ (P126).
And mine is an 1874 and 121899 so lower than 125000 so it’s much more likely to be a Winchester engraved rifle
Also thanks Deerhunter for posting that I have it for sale somewhere else . I didnt want to break the rules as I would have been shut down.
“Please do not post advertisements for stores, gun shops, or other commercial establishments or products in this forum. Such posts are subject to deletion without warning.”
Discus420 said
deerhunter said
Rifle is listed on GI now. Wondering if any experts evaluated its originality?
The only expert information I have is this
noted in “The Winchester Book” by Madis that “A comparative count of engraved guns, comparing early models 66 with the later numbers, indicates that the early models 66, prior to serial numbers 125,000, were engraved at the factory in such large comparative numbers that the total ratio of engraved guns is brought to a much larger figure. Models 66, therefore, made prior to 1875 and numbers near 125,000 were much more frequently engraved than numbers after 125,000″ (P126).
And mine is an 1874 and 121899 so lower than 125000 so it’s much more likely to be a Winchester engraved rifle
Also thanks Deerhunter for posting that I have it for sale somewhere else . I didnt want to break the rules as I would have been shut down.
“Please do not post advertisements for stores, gun shops, or other commercial establishments or products in this forum. Such posts are subject to deletion without warning.”
Members post their guns for sale on sites like Guns International and Gunbroker as well as here on the forum all the time. I think you are misinterpreting the above quoted “rule”. Anyway, you mentioned you contacted Pauline Muerrle already. What did she say about your rifle? I would use caution taking everything from George Madis as gospel. Don’t get me wrong, George did tremendous research and contributed a lot to the Winchester collecting community. However, over the years, a decent portion of George’s claims have been proven incorrect. Pauline Muerrle would be your best route, especially regarding engraved Winchesters. Honestly, if I were a buyer, I would demand an expert of her caliber. Just my honest opinion.
OH I thought I had to take it down once I put it on GI. of Pauline Muerrie all I know is if you look on here site about authenticating rifle’s 1866 isn’t one of them Here is her list from her website Available models:
1892 P
07 P
1910 C
1911 C
Lee Enfield C
1917 C
20 C
21 Complete to 32478
24 P
25 P
39 P
40 C
61 C
62 C
63 C
67 P
71 P
74 C
75 C
12 P
42 C
50 C
52 P
56 C
70 P
88 P
94 P
100 P
1200 P
1400 P
There are at least 20 M1866 guns on GI none of which offer expert authentication
If I were you, I would contact Pauline and actually talk to her personally. What have you got to lose?
If you read Paulines web site she does authenticate all Winchester engraving.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks for posting that Bob. After thinking about this, Pauline would be evaluating the engraving itself, regardless of what model Winchester it is on. Many styles of engraving were used across multiple models. So why would the model really matter?
Pauline also does record research and she has information that Cody doesn’t have so I think that list was the models she has info on or access to.
As to the GI page for this gun. It needs a lot better pictures for anyone to see any engraving detail and Pauline would need a lot of High res pictures to tell what is what. I sent Pauline pictures of a engraved 94 and she was able to authenticate the engraving. This one is around 1 meg and you would want to send as high as you can take and be well lite, clear and sharp.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
Who engraved your 94? I’m guessing someone more contemporary? Stokes or Gough?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick,
It was William Gough
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Discus420 said
Chuck said
I am not an expert on most things but I do know for a fact that there are more engraved 66’s than Winchester ever had engraved. Be very careful of guns in the non letterable range.
noted in “The Winchester Book” by Madis that “A comparative count of engraved guns, comparing early models 66 with the later numbers, indicates that the early models 66, prior to serial numbers 125,000, were engraved at the factory in such large comparative numbers that the total ratio of engraved guns is brought to a much larger figure. Models 66, therefore, made prior to 1875 and numbers near 125,000 were much more frequently engraved than numbers after 125,000″ (P126).
So yes Chuck you are correct ! There are more 1866’s engraved than any other model. and more before 1875 also. mine was made in 1874 and is before 125,000
Deerhunter Thanks for posting my listing and No I have not found an expert seems its all a matter of opinion because there are no letters for the 1866. I cant wait the 9 months minimum to get it into the RIA .
You kind of missed my point. There are a lot of fake engraved 66’s. Pauline does look at 66’s. We’ve had her do it.
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