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SOLD/DEAL MADE !!!
11/15/2024
With suggestions from more than one member, I decided to post this here, with suggested pictures. Looking to acquire a Winchester model 1873 Rifle, in .44 Caliber. Not limited to just the rifle, as a carbine wouldn’t hurt my feelings, but a Rifle would be preferred, with a full magazine. A sorter magazine would also be considered, as I know this could be a long shot as I’m not the only one looking for such an animal. My trade idea will start with offering a Lettered S&W Schofield revolver. I can get as creative as I need to, with the trade possibilities, cash, etc………..I have been known to do so! 
This is a second model as the letter indicates, with a 5 inch barrel.
More details can be provided, and or other trade wants or needs can be discussed per, a PM!
Anthony
Coincidentally, the serial number of this Schofield, in .45 Schofield caliber, is a few digits off of the one Frank James owned.
Anthony
Anthony said
Coincidentally, the serial number of this Schofield, in .45 Schofield caliber, is a few digits off of the one Frank James owned.Anthony
I often hear or see such guns talked about at gun shows. Not to sound harsh. My question being when hearing such a statement is, And So What?
Its not said whatever said thing that is several serial numbers off. If I’ve got a model 73 that is one serial number off from being a 1 of 1000. I still have a plain jane 73 and nothing will make a 1 of 1000 rifle. The 73 is not any more valuable being one serial off.
Another issue with such historical guns was family members. I don’t know if it was true for Frank James, but I’ve been told that Jesse James’ mother would often go and buy the cheapest revolver she could get her hands on. Then go sell them for a lot of money to anyone that would buy them, stating the “fact” that said gun was her son’s gun.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Yeah, I hear ya Brady, and even though I’m the one that stated that comment, I do agree with you’re point. Consider this as the statement was brought to my attention years ago, and it was in my notes. with a little over, 8200 S&W Schofield revolvers, in total production, that we’re manufactured, and approximately over 720,000 Winchester model 1873’s mfg. there’s a slight difference in percentages here in comparison, and naturally it’s in the eye of the beholder to take into account or refute. Just a common comparison, and some facts to throw about. All in All, I do agree as it doesn’t make it any more valuable, as far as mine, or yours are being talked about.
I did hear and or read the same about Jesse James Mother buying guns as cheap as she could find and sell them to make a buck.
Anthony
Maverick said
Anthony said
Coincidentally, the serial number of this Schofield, in .45 Schofield caliber, is a few digits off of the one Frank James owned.
Anthony
I often hear or see such guns talked about at gun shows. Not to sound harsh. My question being when hearing such a statement is, And So What?
Its not said whatever said thing that is several serial numbers off. If I’ve got a model 73 that is one serial number off from being a 1 of 1000. I still have a plain jane 73 and nothing will make a 1 of 1000 rifle. The 73 is not any more valuable being one serial off.
Another issue with such historical guns was family members. I don’t know if it was true for Frank James, but I’ve been told that Jesse James’ mother would often go and buy the cheapest revolver she could get her hands on. Then go sell them for a lot of money to anyone that would buy them, stating the “fact” that said gun was her son’s gun.
Sincerely,
Maverick
I hear it (and see it noted) often as well. To most of us here, it’s just a point of minor interest. A small bit of additive detail. However, I think it is worth mentioning as some prospective buyers might find it more than a minor point. Maybe just enough to push them toward your piece vs. another equivocal piece.
Steve, I agree, as I appreciate you’re kind comments. Especially with so few manufactured, as their main competitor at the time was the famous “Cowboy Colt’ model 1873, in the .45 long Colt caliber, and could be used with the Winchester model 1873! It made perfect sense to be able to carry a side arm that could use ammunition that could be used in you’re Rifle. Helping to doom the .45 Schofield revolver that used a .45 Schofield only cartridge.
Anthony
The Schofield was used by the US Cavalry at the same time as the 45 Colt. The Colt could shoot either cartridge. But eventually the Military quit using the 45 Colt ammo and only supplied the shorter Schofield. The 73 Winchester never came in 45 Colt. The rifle and pistol shared the 44 WCF.
The Schofield was almost exclusively sold to the Military. I think less than 1000 were made for the commercial market. Schofields came in 2 Models, 1st and 2nd. The Schofields were an upgrade to the 44 cal S&W Americans. The biggest difference between the American and the Schofield besides the caliber is the latch to open the action. The Schofield could more easily be reloaded while on horseback.
There are a lot of fake short barrel Schofields with the Wells Fargo markings.
These are 2 Frankford Arsenal Benet primed cartridges that were issued by the Military during the Indian Wars.
Chuck,
You are absolutely correct.
The U.S. Army adopted the .44 S&W American caliber model 3 revolver in 1870, making it the first standard-issue cartridge, firing-revolver in U.S. service. The U.S Government decided to award Major George W. Schofield, a contract, providing he could make a revolver to shoot the .45 Colt! Instead he came up with his own caliber, the .45 Schofield, cartridge as your illustration indicates, is a little shorter than the Colt .45 caliber. Hence the schofield could be fired in the Colt revolver, but not vica-versa.
This actually was one of, if not the first cartridge development, to replace the black powder cartridge, with Smokeless powder!
Major George W. Schofield’s older brother, John M. Schofield, sat on the U.S. Army ordinance board as the head of the U’S. Army ordinance board, and was a conflict of interest, hence the main reason for the U.S. Army’s adoption of the Schofield in the beginning!
These popular loading revolver’s with their handy latch system that could be loaded on horse back, as Chuck had stated, we’re used in “The Indian Wars”, “The Spanish American War”, and “The Philippine American War”.
Besides the fact, that this serial number is 55 digits lower than, the infamous, “Frank James”, of the Famous “Jesse and Frank James”, known as the “James Gang”, (and not to be confused with the musical group), also was popular with the likes of documented characters, such as, John Wesley Hardin, Jesse James, Bob Ford, Pat Garrett, Theodore Roosevelt, Virgil Earp, Billy the Kidd, along with others! Also used by Wyatt Earp at, “The Gunfight at The OK Corral”, with the Clanton Gang!
While the Standard length of the Schofield Revolver was 7 inches long, Many were purchased, by distributors, after the Spanish American War of 1898, and shortened to the, 5 inch length that is common, as many we’re purchased by “The Well’s Fargo &Co.” and so marked accordingly. Many fakes have been found marked as so. This is not one of them! The ones, as this one was professionally reconditioned, and the “E’, mark so indicates on the revolver cylinder will verify such.
Pretty amazing revolver all in all, as verified in the S&W, Letter !
Anthony
The Schofield history is an interesting one. I’ve always admired the Schofield. I like opening it up and staring at the headstamps of all those fat cartridges staring back at me. I have a Whitney-Kennedy repeater that’s been rebored to .45 Colt – I’ve often thought a .45 Schofield would be a neat companion piece.
Chuck – you didn’t mention it, but you have a Schofield don’t you?
November 7, 2015
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Anthony-
Cool gun. You and Big Larry are going to make a S&W collector out of me some day. The serial number and proximity to a famous (infamous?) gun helps give context in my case. I’m interested in the history these guns represent so this reference is helpful for me. Does it make a difference in the value? Probably not but I appreciate the effort. Then again, I’m a numbers guy. It seems at least one of the Hatfield clan followed Mrs. Samuel’s enterprising example. Many “feud” guns were built after the last shot was fired in anger but the gun belonged to an honest to goodness “Hatfield” even though he bought it to sell to an ignorant tourist.
Mike
Mike,
My oldest son went to College with a young man his same age who bears the Hatfield name as a Descendant, and my wife and I became friend with his parents also as these young men lived together in adjoining states, as they we’re starting they’re business careers out of College. We shared stories, and learned a lot from the father, who told a few stories that he had heard growing up, while enjoying some Ice Cold Refreshments. He did have some stories about the weapons that we’re bought and sold long after family members had passed. True stories, not rumors!
A friend of mine, who I convinced a few years ago to set up a display at the OGCA in Cleveland, Ohio, on the Leonard Muzzle loader Family Rifle that his Great, Great, Grandfather, David, who was a very talented rifle builder, had run across several rifles, and engraving hand tools along with several other hand tools, as this story is amazing in itself. OGCA asked him to represent them at the NRA show which he did also, an another amazing chapter in the story, and the coup de gras, of the whole Story was that RIA, had a Leonard rifle supposedly, yet not completely verified to be tied to Kit Carson.
One never knows where these Collecting hobbies can take us!
Anthony
steve004 said
The Schofield history is an interesting one. I’ve always admired the Schofield. I like opening it up and staring at the headstamps of all those fat cartridges staring back at me. I have a Whitney-Kennedy repeater that’s been rebored to .45 Colt – I’ve often thought a .45 Schofield would be a neat companion piece.Chuck – you didn’t mention it, but you have a Schofield don’t you?
No I don’t. But I have looked at them for years and would like to have a 2nd Model. I like that this Model has a cartouche on each grip and has the better latch. These, like the 1875 Remington, can be quite expensive in really nice condition. A decent one will run over 7K. It is hard to find what I call a tweener. One with a lot of condition but not really high end. A couple years ago I found one for 9K in Vegas but I had just spent my money on a 1875 Remington in 44 WCF. These 2 revolvers along with the Colt and Merwin & Hulbert/Hopkins and Allen were very popular in the old west.
It is on my want list.
Chuck!
I’m YOUR HUCKLEBERRY!
I agree with you, as it’s really hard to find a tweener. With such a limited production, I don’t ever remember seeing one, in the so called middle of the road condition. I like you’re want list, as some great historical pieces that you mentioned here!
Anthony
Chuck,
I searched Hard, with a light, and magnifying glass, years ago as I was told the grips are original, and I think that they’ve been replaced, as the guns wear, and the grips don’t really show the same kind of wear to me, looking for a worn cartouche, on both grips, and I never could find anything, as the grips are nice, and maybe a little too nice for the gun.
Anthony
Might I add that a very dignified S&W Collector along with a few others at an OGCA show years ago stated that they thought the grips could have been replaced by a Government contractor or surplus buyers who would cut down the barrels and replace worn grips, as can be seen these grips are properly fitted and wear the revolver well! No marks are on the inside of them indicating anything, as no information has been found to indicate to me other wise.
Anthony
I am currently in discussion wit a couple members on a possible deal/trade for a Winchester .44 caliber model 73.
We’re talking about several different scenarios, as I’m not afraid to open up the coffers!
Anthony
A deal has been made as this Schofield is no longer available!
I will post pictures at a later date of the newly acquired Winchester!
Thanks all for the PM’s and consideration.
Anthony
November 7, 2015
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Anthony-
Thanks for sharing the adventure with us, looking forward to seeing the new acquisition.
Mike
In respect to the Grips, on the S & W Schofield revolver, that went in the trade above, an Expert in that field, who examined the revolver years ago, confirmed reading the letter, and from his personal notes, that the grips, currently on the revolver, we’re placed at the time of the reworking,that the Armory who bought up, the surplus revolvers, and cut the barrel down, and remounted the front sight, as was common back then, after it’s service work, for such companies like Wells Fargo, and the likes, to purchase them for their agents, making them more concealable, in they’re coat pocket, and on they’re person. Just more FYI!
Anthony
