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This is my first post!!
Recently I bought my first “old” Winchester and it seems the original sights were replaced at least once. The front sight is a Marbles/Beard and the rear isn’t listed in “The Sight Book”. I would like to replace these sights with sights likely to have been installed by the factory but first I’d like to know about the current rear sight. I’m hoping someone here can tell me who made this sight, the dates manufactured and whether or not it might have been factory installed. The rifle is s/n 9815 manufactured late 3Q of 1875. Photos are at the link below.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p4odfbj9pckbkv4/AADdAIfjpcX3QeAylMfXtERTa?dl=0
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Bill,
That is the original rear barrel sight for a first model. It should have a flat step elevator. The later sights used a elevator that has sloped steps.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob – That’s good news. I’m wondering why I didn’t see it in the book. Thanks for letting me know which elevator I need to find, can you suggest where I might look for one of these flat step elevators.
I’m quite sure the front sight isn’t original. I was thinking the 21A was the one I needed but I’m not sure. Which one should I look for?
I added photos of the current front sight to the link, I think Bubba or his son worked on it.
I appreciate the fast response.
Bill
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p4odfbj9pckbkv4/AADdAIfjpcX3QeAylMfXtERTa?dl=0
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Bill Sturcke said
Bob – That’s good news. I’m wondering why I didn’t see it in the book. Thanks for letting me know which elevator I need to find, can you suggest where I might look for one of these flat step elevators.I’m quite sure the front sight isn’t original. I was thinking the 21A was the one I needed but I’m not sure. Which one should I look for?
I added photos of the current front sight to the link, I think Bubba or his son worked on it.
I appreciate the fast response.
Bill
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p4odfbj9pckbkv4/AADdAIfjpcX3QeAylMfXtERTa?dl=0
Ebay has tons of Winchester sights and elevators too. The front sight would be a pre M21 with brass insert and NO screw. Of course, the sight that is in it may have been special ordered? Big Larry
Bill,
I looked on ebay and didn’t see any of the early first model elevators. The elevator you want is like the one pictured below. The front sight is a plain 21 without the screw. They had German silver swagged in them.
Bob
http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1873/M73-003414/73-003414-10.JPG
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I see there are variations in the dimensions of the plain 21 sight. I believe I should look for one .358″ tall to be correct, is that so?
Finding these parts will be an interesting challenge.
Bill
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Bill,
That sounds about the right height. When you see them for sale you never see them listed with the height designation letter sometimes with a measurement so your going to have to ask for the measurement on them that don’t . Some sellers will not have a micrometer or dial calipers to measure them accurately. Are you planning on shooting it?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Actually, I have no plans to shoot my 1873, it’s just for display, conversation and a link to days of old.
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
1873man said
Bill,
When you see them for sale you never see them listed with the height designation letter sometimes with a measurement so your going to have to ask for the measurement on them that don’t . Some sellers will not have a micrometer or dial calipers to measure them accurately.
Bob
Nearly all the sights for sale on eBay have been filed down somewhere along the way so getting one that has original factory letter height is going to be extremely hard to find.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
You make a good point, I hadn’t thought about filed blades. Actually, I will be happy to go for any example that I can find. My rifle is certainly not pristine and I wouldn’t want a pristine sight. Thanks for the info.
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Online
Any Comers,
I’d like to know, from an historical point of view, why so many sights were filed down. I too have seen many, many front sight blades filed, so why were so many doing it ?
Bill
Most likely this was done during the period when both smokeless and black powder ammunition was being sold simultaneously for the Model 1873’s and 1892’s ie., 44-40, 38-40 and 32-20. If your rifle was sighted in for smokeless ammunition and then you used black powder ammo, the use of BP would strike the target much lower that your prior zero. If your rear sight was elevated to it’s highest point and you still shot low, the only solution would be to lower the front sight. This would also apply to 32-40’s and 38-55’s as well as the other hyphenated cartridges used in 1885’s and 1886’s.
Also, there were probably more than a few dummies out there that filed down their front sight when the smokeless ammo fired in BP guns struck high. As they say in woodworking, “measure twice and cut once”. In this case, “think twice before filing down”.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
It’s good to know that my rear sight is original, looking close at the barrel I see marks that seem to shadow the sight. Regardless, this sight was not firmly attached, actually it was loose and merely slid out of the dovetail.
Is there a way to keep it firmly in place?
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Bill,
Yes you can. I use a very small ball peen hammer and with the sight removed you tap down the edges of the dovetail from the top side. You are bending the sharp edge of the dovetail down so you get a interference fit to the sight. You don’t do anything from the sides. Just do a little at a time and then try the sight.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bill Sturcke said
This is my first post!!Recently I bought my first “old” Winchester and it seems the original sights were replaced at least once. The front sight is a Marbles/Beard and the rear isn’t listed in “The Sight Book”. I would like to replace these sights with sights likely to have been installed by the factory but first I’d like to know about the current rear sight. I’m hoping someone here can tell me who made this sight, the dates manufactured and whether or not it might have been factory installed. The rifle is s/n 9815 manufactured late 3Q of 1875. Photos are at the link below.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p4odfbj9pckbkv4/AADdAIfjpcX3QeAylMfXtERTa?dl=0
Bill, Ebay # 292163023064 Might just be what you need. Big Larry
Larry,
This sight looks very good I’ll give it a try. Thanks much!
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Big Larry – I received the sight ordered from Ebay and although I ordered it from a “Buy it now” listing by the same seller, I think all #21 sights on the site are the same. I won another well weathered and distressed looking example from him but that has not arrived.
The sight I received shows machine marks that tell me it’s a reproduction sight made by CNC machine. The total height is about .375″ and the width is .639″ and I measure the dovetail at .386″. Overall, a good looking sight that would probably please someone looking for a reproduction sight but for a reproduction I’m sure I paid too much @ ~$90 each.
Photo link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k2m7wvey6nxz3pq/AADnPCr46uWmXLC131u4LcOWa?dl=0
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
Bill Sturcke said
The sight I received shows machine marks that tell me it’s a reproduction sight made by CNC machine. The total height is about .375″ and the width is .639″ and I measure the dovetail at .386″. Overall, a good looking sight that would probably please someone looking for a reproduction sight but for a reproduction I’m sure I paid too much @ ~$90 each.
Photo link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k2m7wvey6nxz3pq/AADnPCr46uWmXLC131u4LcOWa?dl=0
That casting bubble on the side of the sight is a tell-tale sign of a reproduction sight. I would think that $90 for an original Winchester #21 is high – I got one in excellent condition (without screw hole) at a local gun show last year for $50.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Photos of my most recently purchased #21 are linked below. This sight looks great to me without magnification but looking close I see marks that I suspect are, again, from CNC machining. The sight is either well worn or merely “distressed”. I’ve never looked close at an original #21 and certainly wouldn’t be able to pick one out of a lineup. What do you think? If someone can post a close up of an original I would appreciate it.
Photo link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s8wedusypfj1q1y/AADVwYKHy8o9_OEs_RlOkuh3a?dl=0
Bill Sturcke - Retired - Ponca City, Oklahoma
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