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"Beech" sights
August 15, 2020
3:15 pm
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Chuck said

What I am saying is that the 5 B can be found with an ivory bead and what ever the gold looking metal bead one is.  I haven't got any Lyman catalogs and I don't think the Winchester catalogs show all of the Lyman sights.

The 5 G picture you show on August 13th is what a bead sight looks like.  The one in your picture is the gold colored one I am talking about.  This is a variation of the 5 B or maybe another Lyman number all together?  The 5 B ivory looks just like this but is ivory.

clarence said
Might be, but can't see it clearly enough to say for sure.  What I thought I saw was a round bead.  Need a better close-up.  

What you are seeing is the tip of the ivory Post.  The post is like a tube that you can see the other end on the back side.  If the tip is damaged you can push the post out to expose more ivory.  

 

Always for Lyman 5B, how is maintained the little ivory pin ?

We an see a little hole on the top of steel tube, is it for that ?

August 15, 2020
4:46 pm
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Don't think there is any way to "maintain" it.  I think that hole is made by a punch to hold the ivory in place.

August 16, 2020
7:48 am
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Chuck said

.../...

clarence said
Might be, but can't see it clearly enough to say for sure.  What I thought I saw was a round bead.  Need a better close-up.  

What you are seeing is the tip of the ivory Post.  The post is like a tube that you can see the other end on the back side.  If the tip is damaged you can push the post out to expose more ivory.  

 

clarence said
Don't think there is any way to "maintain" it. I think that hole is made by a punch to hold the ivory in place.

 

If there is a punch to maintain the Ivory, haw can you puch it more ?

On the bad photos I see on the internet, the ivory shape looks more a nail than a pin. There are two diameters

Do you confirm that ?

August 16, 2020
4:23 pm
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Yes, two diameters, not a uniform cylinder--which would complicate the manufacture of them; yet Lyman still produced them cheaply.  How?

August 16, 2020
9:36 pm
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OK.  Here is another page out of Stroebel's book.  Page 51.

 

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August 16, 2020
9:47 pm
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On another note after Lyman purchased the rights to the Beech sight they made a few too.  The Lyman made ones do not have the patent date and the post is thicker.  I know I have a high condition Beech's sight but can't find it????  These are beautiful sights.

August 16, 2020
11:36 pm
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Chuck said
OK.  Here is another page out of Stroebel's book.  Page 51.

  

Dead wrong.  Some were, but some isn't all.

August 16, 2020
11:45 pm
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Chuck said
On another note after Lyman purchased the rights to the Beech sight they made a few too.  The Lyman made ones do not have the patent date and the post is thicker.  I know I have a high condition Beech's sight but can't find it????  These are beautiful sights.  

Chuck, There was no need to purchase the rights--Beech's patent expired in 1891, & that's when Lyman introduced their #5. 

August 17, 2020
5:11 pm
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clarence said

Dead wrong.  Some were, but some isn't all.  

Well in the case of the 5B I'd say the gold option was ordered more than once.  These can be found.  I'm not smart enough to argue with Stroebel.

clarence said

Chuck, There was no need to purchase the rights--Beech's patent expired in 1891, & that's when Lyman introduced their #5.   

Clarence, maybe I used the wrong word. Stroebel says they procured manufacturing rights by obtaining a Patent on the design. 

August 17, 2020
7:40 pm
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Chuck said

Well in the case of the 5B I'd say the gold option was ordered more than once.  These can be found.  I'm not smart enough to argue with Stroebel.

clarence said
Chuck, There was no need to purchase the rights--Beech's patent expired in 1891, & that's when Lyman introduced their #5.   

Clarence, maybe I used the wrong word. Stroebel says they procured manufacturing rights by obtaining a Patent on the design.   

I'll argue with him until I see factual proof for those unsubstantiated claims.  I've never see ANY Lyman product that was not described in a Lyman catalog.  So let's see a copy of a Lyman catalog offering that gold bead option.  Maybe it exists, but the only thing I've seen are many catalogs that don't offer it. 

The 1891 Lyman pat. no. marked on #5s pertains to the two screw-pins on which the globe rotates, but it was first used on the predecessor of the #6 leaf sight; has nothing to with the globe itself, but as I said, Lyman began the production of it AFTER the Beach pat. had expired.  Lyman never tried to make an exact Beach copy, but Winchester did--it's the Beach sight with the 1902 pat. date on it, which refers to the process of applying the metal bead, nothing else.

August 23, 2020
3:59 pm
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Do we know who made the actual Beach combination sights?   The ones made before the April 9, 1867 patent expired.  They were used on other rifles as well besides Winchester.  Other manufacturers such as Colt (who used a 5/16 inch size dovetail on some rifles) showed the Beach combination sight in their catalog.  

Marlin also listed the Beach combination sight in their catalogs of the period.  See Stroebel's book page 174.  Apparently, Sharps and Whitney also offered the Beach combination sight in their catalogs. 

Who actually made the Beach combination sights?   Did they make other sights?

August 23, 2020
4:51 pm
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Beach made the beach sight.  I have never seen another type of Beach sight.  Some Beach sights without the Patent date are said to be made by Lyman.

August 23, 2020
5:10 pm
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clarence said

" Lyman never tried to make an exact Beach copy, but Winchester did--it's the Beach sight with the 1902 pat. date on it, which refers to the process of applying the metal bead, nothing else". 

I'll argue with him until I see factual proof for those unsubstantiated claims. I've never see ANY Lyman product that was not described in a Lyman catalog. So let's see a copy of a Lyman catalog offering that gold bead option.
 

Clarence where can we find documentation about Winchester making a Beach sight?  

Here is a photo of a Lyman document again showing that beads came in different colors, even gold.

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August 24, 2020
9:24 pm
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Chuck said
Beach made the beach sight.  I have never seen another type of Beach sight.  Some Beach sights without the Patent date are said to be made by Lyman.  

Actually Beach did not make the Beach sight.  He didn't have a factory. He was a talented machinist and inventor.  Something akin to when Sam Colt wanted to make the Walker revolvers and hired the Whitney company to make them.   

I did some further digging and found a great article from Man At Arms magazine number 3 issue for 2002 called "Mr. Beach's Idea: The Combination Sight."  According to the article, E.B. Beach hired the Merrimack Arms Company to make the sights.  Apparently, that company failed so Beach established a relationship with the Massachusetts Arms Company, makers of the Maynard rifle.  They made the sights although Beach seems to have had rights to market and distribute them.  The Maynard catalog was the first one to show the Beach Combination Sight in 1872.  They show up in the Winchester catalog by 1875.  

Remington may have made copies of the Beach sight after the patent expired.  Winchester did make perfect copies of the Beach sight after the patent expired.  They used a Nov. 4, 1902 date on the sights they made.

As has been discussed, the Lyman #5 is a completely different animal, although many people (especially eBay dealers) refer to them as "Beach" or "Beech" sights.

I hope this adds to the story.

August 26, 2020
4:04 am
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Here is a few closeup pictures of the Lyman 5b I have.

Bob

IMG_4490.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_4491.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_4492.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_4493.JPGImage Enlarger

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August 26, 2020
1:08 pm
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1873man said
Here is a few closeup pictures of the Lyman 5b I have.

Bob

  

Don't think I've seen another with such bright ivory!  Mine are a dingy yellow.

August 26, 2020
5:46 pm
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Bill Hockett said

Actually Beach did not make the Beach sight.  He didn't have a factory. He was a talented machinist and inventor.  Something akin to when Sam Colt wanted to make the Walker revolvers and hired the Whitney company to make them.   

I did some further digging and found a great article from Man At Arms magazine number 3 issue for 2002 called "Mr. Beach's Idea: The Combination Sight."  According to the article, E.B. Beach hired the Merrimack Arms Company to make the sights.  Apparently, that company failed so Beach established a relationship with the Massachusetts Arms Company, makers of the Maynard rifle.  They made the sights although Beach seems to have had rights to market and distribute them.  The Maynard catalog was the first one to show the Beach Combination Sight in 1872.  They show up in the Winchester catalog by 1875.  

Remington may have made copies of the Beach sight after the patent expired.  Winchester did make perfect copies of the Beach sight after the patent expired.  They used a Nov. 4, 1902 date on the sights they made.

As has been discussed, the Lyman #5 is a completely different animal, although many people (especially eBay dealers) refer to them as "Beach" or "Beech" sights.

I hope this adds to the story.  

Bill, that is very interesting information.  I went back and looked at Tom Rowe's sight book and there is a very nice write up on Beach in the Maynard section on page 30.  Previously I had always just looked at the Beach section. It says Winchester's Patent was 712863.  Another note in Rowe's book is that he says "The gold washed Beach's Combination Front Sight was introduced at the same time as the regular Beach's sight in 1869 during the percussion era."   I have never seen or heard of another Beach's sight?  His book also says the Maynard rifles were produced by The Massachusetts Arms Co. 

I did some research on Edgar B. Beach.  I found at least another 9 patents. None for guns.  At the time Alfred E. Beach was the owner and editor of the Scientific Magazine where the Patents were usually noted.  I have not found a relationship between A. E. and E .B..  There was another Beach that was affiliated with E. B. but I can't find my notes.

I met Tom Rowe in Denver in 2019.  He said that he was able to go through the late Richard Paterson's collection before he passed away.  According to Rowe Mr. Paterson was a huge collection of sights.  I did not know Mr. Paterson.

August 26, 2020
8:06 pm
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Chuck said

I met Tom Rowe in Denver in 2019.  He said that he was able to go through the late Richard Paterson's collection before he passed away.  According to Rowe Mr. Paterson was a huge collection of sights.  I did not know Mr. Paterson.  

Never met Dick Paterson, but talked to him numerous times on the phone.  He provided me with a copies of several VERY rare scope catalogs.  Through another party, I know the family has offered his sight collection for sale, but placed such a high price on it that there were no takers.  Dick was a very well heeled lawyer & willing to pay prices for things that few others could match; that, in part, is how he amassed such a fabulous collection.

August 27, 2020
4:53 pm
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Clarence, if you ever hear of his collection coming up for sale let us know.  I would like to get some individual pieces.

August 29, 2020
2:04 pm
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1873man said
Here is a few closeup pictures of the Lyman 5b I have.

Bob

IMG_4490.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_4491.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_4492.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_4493.JPGImage Enlarger  

Finally a real Lyman 5B Ivory !

Thanks

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