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How rare is my 1957 model 50 pigeon/trap if i can figure out how to post pictures i will gun has A B checkering as well
It is not possible to answer your question. Unfortunately, there are no known (surviving) factory production records for the Model 50.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
[email protected] said
How rare is my 1957 model 50 pigeon/trap if i can figure out how to post pictures i will gun has A B checkering as well
As a guest, you aren’t allowed to post images. However, you can put them on a Web server and post a link to them here.
I had a friend who was given a new pair of Model 50 Pigeon Grade Skeet guns, a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge, with which he competed in his youth. It has been more than a half-Century since I’ve seen him or the two shotguns but I remember that they were ordered through the Winchester Custom Shop, I’d say between 1958 and 1962.
Pauline Muerrle, a former factory employee and Custom Shop engraver, is also a WACA member and Winchester historian who has access to some, if not all, of the Custom Shop records. She maintains a Website at https//paulinemuerrle.com and might be able to tell you more about your gun.
As Bert has said, there aren’t surviving factory records from which total Model 50 production can be accurately determined. However, Pauline might be able to say whether all Pigeon Grade shotguns were made up in the Custom Shop, for which some records do exist.
I don’t think the Model 50 was a very popular shotgun, even though very well designed and made. I think it was introduced about 1954-55 and production ceased about 1959, when it was replaced by the underrated Model 59, which utilized the same short recoil action but had an aluminum receiver, a composite barrel, and the first integral choke tubes ever sold.
A major complaint about the Model 50 was it was too heavy. I owned a good Model 59 that was the best balanced and fastest handling automatic 12 gauge I’d ever shot. My son has it now. I believe I’ve seen a photo of a Pigeon Grade 59 in Ronald Stadt’s Winchester shotgun book, the only one I’ve ever seen or heard of. Pigeon Grade Model 50 shotguns are not common. Pauline may be one of the few people around who could tell you more.
To conclude: I believe the Model 50 and 59 were overwhelmed by the gas action technology introduced by Remington and High Standard [J. C. Higgins] in their Fifties automatics. Winchester has never gotten much traction with its automatic shotguns, some of which deserved better.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Winchester has never gotten much traction with its automatic shotguns, some of which deserved better.
Which is a kind of Karmic payback, as John M. Browning offered them his brilliantly designed Browning Auto 5, but the powers that be in New Haven balked at paying JMB a per gun royalty. In many ways, Winchester never caught up.
BRP
November 7, 2015
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Blue Ridge Parson said
Zebulon said
Winchester has never gotten much traction with its automatic shotguns, some of which deserved better.
Which is a kind of Karmic payback, as John M. Browning offered them his brilliantly designed Browning Auto 5, but the powers that be in New Haven balked at paying JMB a per gun royalty. In many ways, Winchester never caught up.
BRP
Interesting point. Some good, solid designs that never quite caught on. I’m currently custodian of a 1400 and it seems quite interesting but as it doesn’t actually belong to me I’ll be content with handling it occasionally. I was gazing at a lightweight variant of JMB’s celebrated humpback at the Orphanage yesterday. I’ve always been able to resist the attraction of this shotgun but someday one will follow me home.
Mike
The best Auto-5, in my opinion, was the Light Twenty and I wish I’d bought a Belgian NIB when they were available new. I did in fact strain myself in 1967 for a new Light Twelve 26″ VR IC but found it tiresomely heavy over time.
I’ve owned several in different gauges and varieties since: the 1955 Light Twelve I still have, a standard Twelve with a Japanese VR 30″ Invector Plus choke tube barrel, a 1960 Sweet Sixteen plain Mod, and a 1990s new Sweet Sixteen (built on the 12 gauge frame — loser), and one 1971 Light Twenty Miroku- built — full choked 28″ VR, I had Larry ream it to 50% and install a nice Sorbothane pad — that my son now owns.
I never found the old Sweet Sixteen could do anything a good twenty gauge couldn’t do and the ammo supply was underwhelming in its variety. The old one was fast handling with its plain barrel and petite receiver; the reissue with 12 gauge frame and VR barrel was a bad joke.
We’ve shot a lot of informal clays with the little Light Twenty and it’s a sweetheart in the field.
Until I lucked into a minty Superposed Lightning 20 gauge, my shotgun of choice has been for some time a Browning repro of the 1988 Winchester Model 12 deluxe/Skeet grade 20 gauge 26″ VR Mod. Its build quality, fit and finish rival a prewar Winchester. M12, of which I’ve owned several. By the way.
But I still get nostalgic about small gauge Auto-5s.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I have posted pictures on face book page pre 64 rifle and shotgun collectors page ED VANDERBECK
November 7, 2015
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I must admit I would have been sorely tempted by a light 20, especially if it had a skeet choke or tubes. I’ve always like the 16, just not enough to take up shotshell reloading. I think I want a Model 12 Skeet in 20 but the learning curve will be steep for a left arm spoiled by doubles.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I must admit I would have been sorely tempted by a light 20, especially if it had a skeet choke or tubes. I’ve always like the 16, just not enough to take up shotshell reloading. I think I want a Model 12 Skeet in 20 but the learning curve will be steep for a left arm spoiled by doubles.
Mike
I could bring mine to the Cody show, but you are responsible for supplying the drool rag!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
TXGunNut said
I must admit I would have been sorely tempted by a light 20, especially if it had a skeet choke or tubes. I’ve always like the 16, just not enough to take up shotshell reloading. I think I want a Model 12 Skeet in 20 but the learning curve will be steep for a left arm spoiled by doubles.
Mike
If you want to save some money, look at the Browning 12 or the later Winchester branded same gun. Only other difference is Winchester is choked IC. I had Nix order a new Win version and got frustrated with it when the internal slide lock wouldn’t release when the gun heated up. A simple fix but I wasn’t patient in those days and traded it off. Then mercifully found later the Browning version lightly used in box. Had to pay same price as new one. Will be buried with it and an NIB B42. The Browning “Classics” 1986 — about 95 production are actually collectible. See GB for example auctions. Superb build quality.
If you want tubes, Briley is not unaffordable for single barrel installations. I’ve seen B42s he did and that work does not hurt resale, gun store commando advice to the contrary is Bravo Sierra.
If I can ever get loose, I’ll bring my B12 for you to break some clays..
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
[email protected] said
I have posted pictures on face book page pre 64 rifle and shotgun collectors page ED VANDERBECK
There are several such groups. Im going to email you and ask you to send the pix to me so I can post them here.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Here are the Vanderbeck photos of his 1957 Winchester Model 50 Pigeon Grade.
My first reaction is to urge you to get hold of Pauline and give her the serial number and these photos. Given the A-B style checkering and the engraving, the gun surely was made up.in the Winchester Custom Shop.
One question: is the receiver made of steel.or aluminum? For a brief period the company offered a lightweight Model 50 that was the predecessor to the Model 59. 
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Bert H. said
It is not possible to answer your question. Unfortunately, there are no known (surviving) factory production records for the Model 50.Bert
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/needing-a-crash-course-on-model-50/#p55077
Bert, here’s your earlier, more fulsome summary of the Model 50 in its various styles. The question that I ask myself is whether the Pigeon Grade Model 50 of 1957 was [1] a standard style, available “off the shelf, in the manner of my 101 Pigeon Grade 28 gauge, or [2] a special order?
Because I have seen with my own eyes Model 50 Pigeon Grades with more modest checkering panels and no engraving, it is difficult for me to think the Vanderbeck gun came in a box without passing through the Custom Shop.
Perhaps there was a “base model” Pigeon Grade that could serve as the foundation for special order features. Pauline probably knows.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I would add that both Marsh Williams’ short recoil action for the Winchester Models 50 and 59, and Val Browning’s short recoil action for his Browning Double Automatic, were very satisfactory for me in the field with the 12 gauge upland game loads I’ve always preferred: 1 to 1 and 1/8 ounces of shot over about 2.5 dram equivalents of powder. When I could get it the good :pigeon load” of 1.25 oz hard nickle plated shot over 3 drams was comfortable without a pad. Not as soft as an 1100 or Beretta 303, but more pleasant than long recoil guns. And no gas ports to gunk up.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
That tag has a price of 787.00 dollars on it. It’s original to the gun
Edward Vanderbeck said
That tag has a price of 787.00 dollars on it. It’s original to the gun
I noticed that. Would you mind telling us what you know about the provenance of the gun?
I wasn’t sure whether that was the tag placed on it when you bought it in used condition or that it was original to the gun when new. One of the things I’m curious about is why, if the gun was not a stock item available in a retail store, it would have a price tag. I’ve never ordered anything from Winchester’s Custom Shop nor do I have any idea what all would be in their shipment to the customer. I’ve assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that an invoice or packing list or copy of an original order would shipped in the box but retail tags would be absent.
Some of our members with more experience could perhaps answer what the procedure was. Of course, if you know the gun’s history, you could say how it was.
A very interesting piece.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
If I remember correctly the pigeon grade model 50 was a featherweight…. I can’t confirm my memory at this moment but I will try and find the paper/ brochure I read that in
Bill Hanzel said
If I remember correctly the pigeon grade model 50 was a featherweight…. I can’t confirm my memory at this moment but I will try and find the paper/ brochure I read that in
According to the references I have, the Pigeon grade was available in both standard weight and featherweight.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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