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I saw a Winchester model 21 Trap Grade on consignment at local gunsmith shop.
November 8, 2017
2:44 pm
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I stopped by my local gunsmith yesterday to pick up a shotgun I had left for repair, and he had a Win Model 21 in on consignment. I don't know much about model 21's.  I took some pictures, and also sent for a record check when I got home.  It's a Trap Grade, 30" barrels, checkered pistol grip, red Winchester recoil pad, Mod/full, SN 19797.  Record check letter seems to match the guns current configuration. Is this worth the $5k asking price?  If not, what's a fair offer?  Thanks,  Al

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November 8, 2017
3:13 pm
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Would need to see more pics of the barrels, rib and receiver but I'd definitely give it a long look. From what I can see I'd make an offer on it but I'm a sucker for nice Winchesters, pretty wood and trap guns.

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November 8, 2017
3:27 pm
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The barrels if I recall had nearly 100% blue.  Solid rib.  I can maybe stop by the shop today and get a few more pics.

November 8, 2017
3:43 pm
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Take a hard look at the wood. Trap shooters think nothing of modifying and refinishing the wood on their trap guns for a better fit but collectors dislike it very much. CFM data indicates a custom order so the stock dimensions may have been non-standard when it left the factory. I'd try to get an expert look it over but if it fit me I'd probably pay too much for it. Wink

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Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
November 8, 2017
3:50 pm
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Good advice.  I'll have the gunsmith take measurements to see if it still matches the Cody info. It sure didn't look like someone messed with the stock though.

November 8, 2017
4:19 pm
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Something a little odd about the stock dimensions, if your gunsmith has any experience with stockmaking he can probably sort it out for you.

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November 8, 2017
4:53 pm
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Are you talking about the stock dimensions listed on the Cody report?

November 8, 2017
7:20 pm
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Yes. I think pitch is usually expressed as an angle but I can certainly be wrong or the ledger could have been misinterpreted. I don't know the standard stock dimensions for a trap gun of this era. I was surprised to see that amount of data, pretty cool. Too bad the referenced order sheet isn't available.

 

Mike

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November 8, 2017
8:07 pm
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Pitch is usually referred to as cast, which would place the butt stock off the centerline of the shotgun by the said amount.

The length of pull is longer than I would expect for a standard dimension.

Drop at comb and heel are both fairly common numbers for a stock item that I see listed.

I would of thought for a trap grade the wood might be fancier, but one never knows.....

Erin

November 8, 2017
8:57 pm
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Fellows...

There were no standard stock dimensions for the Model 21 shotguns. All of them were Custom Shop built guns, and they were built to the specific order. The typical information found on a Model 21 letter included the LOP, Drop at Comb and the Drop at Heel.

Bert

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November 9, 2017
1:04 am
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Bert H. said
Fellows...
There were no standard stock dimensions for the Model 21 shotguns. All of them were Custom Shop built guns, and they were built to the specific order. The typical information found on a Model 21 letter included the LOP, Drop at Comb and the Drop at Heel.
Bert  

Good to know, thought for sure there was a default dimension. I thought "pitch" was the angle of the face of the butt so I wondered why the cast wasn't listed on the ledger. 1.5" sounds like a bunch of cast but it makes more sense than 1.5" of pitch in my way of thinking. Every trap shooter seems to have his own idea about proper stock dimensions. I like a trap gun that shoots somewhat above (70/30) POA but some prefer 80/20. I have two somewhat different trap guns but they both seem to fit me well, may figure it out someday. One is actually my skeet gun and it shoots pretty close to 60/40.

Most 21's I've seen are too short for me, hope this one fits you, Al. Should probably ask to pattern it as well.

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November 9, 2017
12:32 pm
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According to the Cody report pictured above, the order sheet is available.  The reason I posted this in the first place is the fact that I know nothing about the model 21, and wanted opinions on value.  For this one in particular, they are asking $5k.  

Thanks,

Al

November 9, 2017
1:51 pm
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I would guess the value at $3800-4200 for a good buy. These shotguns were some of the best made during that time frame.

All of them came out of the Custom Shop, Great guns!

November 9, 2017
3:26 pm
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tionesta1 said
According to the Cody report pictured above, the order sheet is available.  The reason I posted this in the first place is the fact that I know nothing about the model 21, and wanted opinions on value.  For this one in particular, they are asking $5k.  

Thanks,

Al  

Al,

If you like the gun, make an offer on it.  Start your bargaining at $4K.

Bert

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November 9, 2017
6:19 pm
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Bert H. said

Al,

If you like the gun, make an offer on it.  Start your bargaining at $4K.

Bert  

I may do that. Thanks Bert.

December 3, 2017
11:30 am
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I don't think the pre 1959 21's came out of the Custom shop but they all were basically hand made.

Shoot quick but take your time.

December 3, 2017
5:54 pm
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I disagree with you first supposition. To the best of my knowledge, all of the original Model 21 shotguns were hand built in the Custom Shop.

Bert

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December 5, 2017
9:06 pm
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Bert,  If your right, the Book on the Winchester 21 by Ned Schwing is incorrect. Ill have to send them a message.  George

Shoot quick but take your time.

December 10, 2017
6:29 pm
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I've decided not to pursue this model 21, so if anyone is interested in it, I'd be happy to go and see if it's still there.

Al

December 26, 2017
11:07 pm
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Mike, Erin and Bert, you are all incorrect.  Pitch is not measured by Winchester in an angle by degrees, but in inches.  Cast and pitch are two different dimensions.  Pitch is the vertical angle of the butt measured in inches and is the distance in inches that the muzzle is from the wall when the butt is placed flat on the floor and the gun is slid into the wall at the receiver.  Cast is the horizontal distance from the center line of the stock at the butt from the center line of the rib.   Bert, examine any pre 1960 Winchester catalog and you will see that there are certainly standard stock dimensions for Model 21s.  Special dimensions could be ordered, but 21s were standard factory items with standard dimensions except in Custom models.

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