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Started fire forming the brass. Only fired 13 of the 25 rounds. It appears it will take several firings to get the shoulders fully expanded.
30 grains of 4064 looks to be too much right now. I had 5 rounds go over my predicted fps. I’m going to use 29.7 grs. next time. I had one primer back out but don’t know why? The velocity on this round, 2446 fps, was way lower than the rest. I had one high one too at 2544 fps. The others were between 2470 and 2513 fps. I was hoping to get around 2500 fps. After measuring the fired cases, the case volume varied a lot. I will check out the case that had the primer back out. I don’t normally spend any time on primer pockets for these old guns. I can check out primer pocket depth, average primer thickness and primer seating depth. I may have to use my primer pocket tool to get them all the same depth.
The earliest ammo was loaded with a 135 grain bullet but later changed to 112 grain. Originally the barrels were proof tested by firing 5 rounds that created 60,000 psi. With the lighter 95 grn bullet shooting at the 112 grain bullet velocity I know I’m not over pressuring the gun.
Shooting at 50 yds. does not show the potential of the rifle. I can’t see the sights and the target well enough to tell where on the target I am actually holding. Next time I’m going to use a target with a larger red center. Here is the 2 groups I shot. 1-8 shot and 1-5 shot. The dots on the targets, not the back board, are where the shots hit.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
Is it normal to need more than one firing to fireform cases? I have only had to do it once and they were good after the first firing. Sounds like once you get the cases blown out you’ll be where you want to be with velocity. Do you have another lot of brass?
Mike
Mike, usually you only have to fire form new brass that has a neck. But since I’m using 220 Swift brass that has a slight neck I will do it as many times as it takes to get the base to shoulder measurement all the same. This ensures I have the same case volume. Rimmed cases that headspace off the rim don’t really have a neck but we all know that cartridges like the 44 WCF or a 45-75 have a slight neck. Non rimmed cases that have a real shoulder head space off the shoulder. So it is very important to fully expand the shoulder. Then when sizing move the shoulder back to the desired head space. I only have 1 lot of 50 cases. The other 25 have not been neck expanded, the rim turned or the extractor groove cut.
I don’t recommend you do this when fire forming for the older guns. When fire forming new brass for my target guns I seat the bullet into the lands so it forces the base of the case against the bolt. This way it ensures any expansion happens in the shoulder/neck area and not in the base. If you allow the brass to expand in the base area you are setting yourself up for case head separation. So, in my case it usually takes two firings to get all of them fully expanded. I have fired over a thousand rounds through my barrels and know the size of my chamber so I know when I have moved the shoulder to max. On new barrels or ones you have not fire formed brass before you fire form until the base to shoulder stops growing and all of them are the same. Another thing to remember that between firings you don’t want the full length sizing die to touch the shoulder. You need to back off so the shoulder can move but still size the neck.
Normally after fire forming I do a powder ladder test then bullet seating depth tests. In this case I am more worried about a safe fps. This modified brass now has a shorter than original neck. I will do some bullet seating depth tests but I am real limited on how close to the lands I can get. At some point I won’t have enough bullet in the case to seal off during ignition. Since I am using a bushing to set the neck diameter and an expander to open it back up to .002″ under bullet diameter I could change to a smaller expander to open it up less to create more neck tension to help seal off.
But, I can’t see to shoot this for any accuracy so why go too far. Maybe if I bring the target in to 25 yds I might be able to see well enough to shoot some groups.
Shot the last 12 cases yesterday for fire forming. Of the 25 cases 18 are about the same length from the base of the case to the case shoulder. 5 cases are a little longer and 2 are shorter. So, I will reload and try a second time to get them all the same length. It may take more than 2 tries.
I have attached the target. It is divided in half. On the left are the bullets that were seated closer to the lands than the ones on the right. 2 of the shots on the right are up in the top area of the target. One shot on the left appears to have missed the target and it did not record on my chronograph? As you can see my eyes and the iron sights don’t work well together. It appears that the 4 shots on the left have a more consistent speed ES/SD. Next time I will load some this length and see if I can get some even closer to the lands. But the short case neck will eventually stop me from getting much closer.
The fired primers are all a bit high. I measured the primer pockets and found that they are .123″ deep. Large rifle primer pockets should be between .125″ to .132″. So I will cut the primer pockets to .131″ and as I said before cut the powder back about .3 grains. It is important that when you seat your primers they are deep enough to be below the base and that the tin cup of the primer is bottomed out. The primers had only been .003″ below the base and I didn’t do any measuring to see if they were bottomed out. A lot of testing in the precision world has found out that, at a minimum seating depth, the cup needs to be bottomed out. Anything deeper is called crush but I am not going to get into this.
Speaking of chronographs, Garmin has come out with a new one. So, many of the other brands will show up on the used marketplace. If I needed a new one I probably would pick the Garmin but a used Lab Radar or lastly a Magneto Speed may fit your budget.
Well, I had a bit of a set back a couple days ago. I tried to full length size the brass and found out I have a problem with the die. It won’t size all the way down to the bottom of the brass. The last 3/8″ of the brass is too large to fit into the die. I will contact Whidden and see what they can do. I tried to force one and I crushed the neck/shoulder of the brass.
So, back to my old ways for awhile. I used my 6.5 Creedmoor die to hold the neck bushing for the Lee and I resized the necks. The body ID for the CM die is large enough not to touch the sides of the Lee brass. During fire forming you don’t want to touch the shoulder anyway. You want to leave space for the shoulder to move forward.
I used a primer pocket tool to cut the pockets deeper. I got at least another .004″ deeper at .127″ and .128″ and am now in the proper depth range for large rifle primers. I used my CPS primer seating tool to get the primers seated at .007″ to .008″ below flush. I did not measure my primer thickness like I would on my target ammo but I’m not looking for this gun to shoot like a target gun. So I’m not sure if the primer cups are bottomed out like they should be to make sure the 3 petals are all touching the bottom of the primer pocket.
I spent some time playing with bullet seating depth. Last time I seated some of the bullets .010″ closer to the lands. I will reload some like this but I’m going to see if I can get another .020″ closer. I’m hoping I have enough bullet in the case to seal off when fired. Remember, the reformed brass has a much shorter neck and the 95 grn. bullets are shorter than the standard 112 grn. I can measure the base to ogive of a factory load and compare this to my loads but this still doesn’t tell me how far off the lands I am. I know I’m pretty far off though. If this were a different rifle I could load a bullet long and jam the bolt closed to find the JAM length. Then I normally start seating the bullet a little farther into the case until I find the spot the stripped bolt will just fall in place. This is called touch. It is a way more accurate way to find the lands than using a Hornady Lock and Load tool. With the HLAL tool the bullet is almost always stuck in the lands. You’d be real surprised how much some times.
My scale is warming up and I hope to drop powder today. I use an A&D FX 120i that is accurate to .02 grains. I’m hoping to get a powder dispenser that sits on top of the scale and can drop powder in about 10 seconds per case. I’ve been waiting for the Ingenuity dispenser to come out. There are 2 other dispensers out that sit on my scale but I like this one.
November 7, 2015
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Bummer about the sizer die, Chuck. My current project won’t let me seat the bullet close to the lands but I’m hoping it won’t matter much because like you, I’m shooting with open sights and old eyes at 50 yards.
The dispenser video is interesting. My RCBS Chargemaster has earned a place of honor on my loading bench, it was quite possibly designed for someone like me because it meets and exceeds my needs. I believe I had to return it for repair early on but it was a very early model and it has been nearly flawless since. Sometimes after a long idle period it takes awhile to wake up but I generally give it awhile before I start.
Mike
The Chargemaster is used by a lot of loaders and is a good choice. Would be fine for the Winchesters and hunting loads. It just is not that great for what I want for my target loads. I go to the extreme to get 5 shot groups at 100 yds under .5″. I load to the kernel and the 2 powders I am using weigh .002 to .003 grains per kernel. And I use 35X scopes.
Loaded 24 rounds. Reduced the powder to 29.7 grs. I seated 10 bullets at 2.16″ base to ogive. This is .010″ closer to the lands than my very first loads. Another 10 at 2.626″ and the last 4 at 2.636″. I’m hoping the last ones are in the case to seal off at ignition.
Here is a picture of a case in the sizing die. I can not say it is the die makers mistake. It is quite possible it was my fault. I used some used brass to figure out how to make them work and then for the sizing die. What I have now is brand new brass. Unfortunately I threw the other brass away so I can not compare the cases.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
The Chargemaster is used by a lot of loaders and is a good choice. Would be fine for the Winchesters and hunting loads. It just is not that great for what I want for my target loads. I go to the extreme to get 5 shot groups at 100 yds under .5″. I load to the kernel and the 2 powders I am using weigh .002 to .003 grains per kernel. And I use 35X scopes.
As you know I don’t have the need, desire or patience for the level of precision you enjoy but I’m still very interested in the process and have even adopted some techniques for my utility and hunting grade ammunition. For my purposes I just can’t justify some of the really cool stuff so I’ll just settle with reading about it. Any word from Whidden?
Mike
No word from Whidden but my email to them said I was going to fire this brass at least 2 more times and then send it to them. The problem may not be theirs. I used Winchester brass to get the cases to fit. Then I changed to Hornady. Unfortunately when I received the dies I threw away the Winchester brass so I have nothing to compare. It will get resolved.
November 7, 2015
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Haven’t weighed or sectioned any cases lately but the Hornady cases I’ve loaded seem to be sturdier than Winchester. Could very well have thicker walls in some places.
My Chargemaster balked a little today. I’m loading some 50 yard plinker loads for my 32-40’s and the light charges of Unique made it stop and think awhile. It muddled through and did just fine, tho.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Haven’t weighed or sectioned any cases lately but the Hornady cases I’ve loaded seem to be sturdier than Winchester. Could very well have thicker walls in some places.My Chargemaster balked a little today. I’m loading some 50 yard plinker loads for my 32-40’s and the light charges of Unique made it stop and think awhile. It muddled through and did just fine, tho.
Mike
You’re right. And that could be the cause. Winchester brass is thinner and sometimes holds more powder. I have switched from one brand for a hunting load to the Winchester just because I wanted more powder.
When you increase your case volume but use the same powder charge your pressure goes down. We see this as an opportunity to load more powder and be able to create the same pressure as before but increase the FPS. That is one reason why we spend the time to fire form the brass to the chamber.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
I load hunting ammo for my brother and I, he has three different rifles in 30-06 to choose from depending on his mood and the weather so I always FL resize. Hornady cases are much more uniform and require less prep and sorting than the RP cases I used for 20+ years. Problem is case lots apparently get mixed up and I’ve never been able to get the same level of accuracy from my reloads as I get from new cases. Other problem is Hornady no longer seems to make the bullet he has had very good performance from. He generally fires a half dozen or so rounds a year so new cases won’t break the bank and I have a few hundred bullets put away.
I’ve never used WW rifle brass for much of anything other than WCF cartridges and I feel fortunate to have good supply of them laid in. The current hunting load is just about 95% case capacity in the Hornady and RP cases so capacity is not an issue. I’m not able to get the advertised velocity of some factory loads with the accuracy I want but so far the S Texas white tails haven’t noticed.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Chuck-I load hunting ammo for my brother and I, he has three different rifles in 30-06 to choose from depending on his mood and the weather so I always FL resize. Hornady cases are much more uniform and require less prep and sorting than the RP cases I used for 20+ years. Problem is case lots apparently get mixed up and I’ve never been able to get the same level of accuracy from my reloads as I get from new cases. Other problem is Hornady no longer seems to make the bullet he has had very good performance from. He generally fires a half dozen or so rounds a year so new cases won’t break the bank and I have a few hundred bullets put away.
I’ve never used WW rifle brass for much of anything other than WCF cartridges and I feel fortunate to have good supply of them laid in. The current hunting load is just about 95% case capacity in the Hornady and RP cases so capacity is not an issue. I’m not able to get the advertised velocity of some factory loads with the accuracy I want but so far the S Texas white tails haven’t noticed.
Mike
I too only use Winchester brass in my collector Winchesters. The 30-06 is the perfect cartridge to use all of the precision loading techniques. But maybe no one needs it to shoot sub .5″ 5 shot groups at 100 yds. Or to be able to shoot through a hole in the brush at a few hundred yards. My only 30-06’s are a Model 1917 and 2 Garands. You need to load the Garands like the WW II rifles were loaded when it comes to the powder charge and case tolerances. If I had a newer bolt action in 30-06 I would use all I know about loading but just change to a hunting bullet.
The Winchester collectors are really hampered with what can be done to improve a rimmed case but a bottle neck is just the opposite.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
All four of these hunting rifles shoot quite well but none will consistently shoot MOA or less. Two are 2009 vintage SG’s but will only print the advertised MOA group with the occasional three shot group, seldom with five or more. I shot hundreds of rounds looking for a load my SG liked before concluding it would never shoot like my old 670. My brother’s Ruger 77 stainless/synthetic is from my stable and will shoot a solid 1.25” or slightly larger group every time and has no problem with hunting in the rain. His old standby is an 80’s vintage push feed Model 70 barely capable of a 2” group on paper but he always makes near-perfect shots on game. Current production rifles often shoot better than any of these rifles but I don’t like the way the new ones look.
I’m always impressed by the accuracy potential of the vintage Winchesters, that’s why your Lee project interests me. The potential of that rifle and cartridge is not uncharted territory but there’s plenty that hasn’t been explored, at least not recently. When I could still shoot peep sights well I had a few early 1894’s that would print groups around 2” with less than perfect bores. It wasn’t too many years ago when 3” was acceptable for bolt action hunting rifles with new bores. They sure don’t build them like they used to!
Mike
Mike, when I’m done with the Lee development I will never be able to show how accurate it may be or not. I just can’t see well enough to hold on target much passed 25 yds. without a scope. Maybe I need to find some young eyes to help out?
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Mike, when I’m done with the Lee development I will never be able to show how accurate it may be or not. I just can’t see well enough to hold on target much passed 25 yds. without a scope. Maybe I need to find some young eyes to help out?
Yep, send them my way when you aren’t using them. Latest project is turning into a plinker load quest but that can be fun, too. I have a few pounds of Unique in addition to an 8-pounder so I’m good with that. I figure that’s 7-8000 plinker loads, depending on the cartridge.
Mike
No good update this week. I went to the range on Tuesday planning to do more fire forming. When I opened the gun bag I noticed that the rifle was not the Lee but instead a 1917. I didn’t bring any 30-06 ammo. When I got home I switched the guns so now the Lee is in the bag.
I always take 2 rifles so I got to do some practice with my 308 and how I mount and hold it. It really makes a difference. I chuckle when I see shooters who sit on the side of their rifles when shooting from a bench. No one I know sits like this. You need to be straight behind the rifle. This really helps control the recoil. With my target gun I use a bipod on the front and have a rear bag that allows the gun to slide back when fired. I preload the bipod and adjust the rear bag rider for elevation. If I do everything right I may get a good group. But, I have this bad habit of coming off the rifle too soon. When I get off too early my shots go high. I need to stay down until I see the bullet hit the target. I’m still getting too much recoil. I can see my hits but the rifle moves so I have to re adjust between shots. This is not good.
Here is the target I shot. All groups are 5 shots at 100 yds. I start at the bottom right and work counter clock wise with the middle being the last. The first shot of the day went high right and the middle target was rush shots because the range was calling a break and I wanted to shoot all the ammo and leave. If you look at the bottom left target you can clearly see the high shot because I got off the gun too soon. The numbers are my group sizes. When there are 2 numbers the bottom one is the group size if I ignore 1 flyer. Except for the middle target all bad shots are my fault.
.
Chuck,
Much as you said, I too need to work on my form. Each ‘tight group’ league I am just getting a consistent form as it ends. Practice? Not me! When done correctly, the rifle does slide straight back and forth and returns to nearly the same spot of aim. Sure wish you lived near by and we could practice together and critique each other! Totally understand the “each bad shot is my fault” too! Cheers! Tim
November 7, 2015
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tim tomlinson said
Chuck,Much as you said, I too need to work on my form. Each ‘tight group’ league I am just getting a consistent form as it ends. Practice? Not me! When done correctly, the rifle does slide straight back and forth and returns to nearly the same spot of aim. Sure wish you lived near by and we could practice together and critique each other! Totally understand the “each bad shot is my fault” too! Cheers! Tim
Tim and Chuck-
A few decades of comp shooting has taught me a brutal truth; with good equipment and good ammo the weak link is nearly always the shooter. When we have progressed to the point where things are working as they should we have only ourselves to blame for a poor performance. I’ll never shoot on the same level as you two but I had good stuff and it was quite an adventure. Even today I have no excuse but I it don’t beat myself up when I don’t perform as well as my equipment.
Mike
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