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Loading the Winchester Lee Navy
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April 13, 2023 - 8:06 pm
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Here is a sheet I prepared showing the results of my powder testing.  The nodes are highlighted.  I found 5 nodes and will re-test the middle 3. Note the percentages on the bottom.  These nodes occur about 1.5% apart.  Good ones are 3% apart and bad ones are 3% apart.  This is not my theory but is actual fact.  In order to pick the right one you also have to look at the groups and see which ones are grouping the same and in the same position in relation to your point of impact.

There is a Youtube video you can watch.

t=13s

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May 29, 2023 - 6:59 pm
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Well, I was gone for a month and came home sick.  Another 2 weeks and still not 100% but I hope to shoot tomorrow, wind permitting.

I am going to step up the powder again hoping to get nearer to my desired FPS.

I need to call CH4D and have a conversation about the shell holder they sent me that does not fit.  I emailed them but got no response.  This is typical of the workmanship and customer service of this company.  And they want me to order a die set.  I don’t think so.

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May 29, 2023 - 11:15 pm
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Glad you’re on the road to recovery, hope the weather cooperates for a shoot tomorrow. 

 

Mike

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May 30, 2023 - 4:30 pm
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Thanks Mike.  I got up at 5 this morning and the wind may have been OK but I wasn’t.  Maybe next week?  I don’t have any energy and get week and shaky when I do almost anything.  I am getting better though.

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June 2, 2023 - 4:09 pm
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Instead of calling CH4D I sat down with my cartridge conversion book and went through page by page and found out that the shell holder for the 357 Mag will work on my Lee Navy brass.  I already have this shell holder and now I don’t have to call CH4D and get my blood pressure all pumped up.

Anyone need a set of CH4D 45-75 loading dies?   I have an extra set.

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June 20, 2023 - 9:58 pm
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Well, a couple weeks ago I ruined both of the pieces of brass I was fire forming.  I scratched the neck on one and it finally split.  The second one I ruined while I was trying to expand the neck.  Since I didn’t have a shell holder to keep it aligned I got sloppy and ruined the neck.

Last week I gave my shooting partner 5 brand new pieces of brass.  He is a retired machinist.  He cut the rims and recut the extractor grooves for me.  I got the 5 pieces from him today.  They all fit the chamber, the shell holder and extracted.  Now with the 357 mag shell holder I can start over.  I need to measure the cases for reference.  I will anneal the necks so I can expand them.  I already have a pretty good starting point on the powder.

I contacted John Whidden, Whidden Gunworks, he told me he would make a f/l sizing die for less than half of what Redding wanted if I would send him 3 pieces of fired formed brass.  He will also make a bullet seating die.  Another option is that he has a universal seating die which he can add a micrometer for more precise movement and less money.  When done I will have a 2 dies set for just over 1/2 of what Redding wanted for 1 die.

I need to talk to him about making dies for our Winchesters.  He doesn’t normally sell dies much over 33 caliber and usually he supplies dies for bottleneck cases.  The same goes for his expander mandrels.  Once you size your brass you can use one of his mandrels to set the neck tension anywhere you want.  The mandrels come in .0005″ increments.  I do this for my 45 caliber ammo already.  Once I figured out how much seating pressure I needed I have not seen a bullet work loose during recoil even without a crimp.

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June 30, 2023 - 3:42 am
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Well, I ruined 2 of the 5 cases I just received.  I was cutting corners and ruined the necks. The remaining 3 I shot at the range trying to creep up on the powder charge and fire form the cases to fit the chamber.

I also scored an original Winchester Lee Navy ammo box and 1 clip of 5 rounds.  I already had 2 full clips.  All I need now is another full clip to fill the box.  I also got a Lee Navy bayonet.  I already had the ammo belt, suspenders and the scabbard.

Scroll down this page for the US bayonets.

https://www.ebayonet.com/bayonetst_z.htm

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June 30, 2023 - 6:24 pm
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Here are some pictures of the belt, suspenders, ammo and bayonet.

I have an extra scabbard that is not in the best of condition and has no military inspection marks.  I believe that this will fit the Winchester 1895 lever action musket bayonet.  The lever action musket bayonet looks exactly like the Lee bayonet but a couple things are different to fit the musket.

Lee-Navy-Ammo-Belt-3-a.jpgImage EnlargerLee-Navy-Ammo-Belt-a.jpgImage EnlargerLee-Navy-Bayonet-2a.jpgImage Enlarger

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July 7, 2023 - 10:49 pm
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On Tuesday I fired 2 of the cases again.  I found that the 3rd one was not forming. I measured the neck thickness and it was at least .001″ thinner.  I have ordered a smaller diameter neck bushing so when I expand the neck it will be tight enough to keep the forming pressure up.  The other 2 have pushed the shoulder forward some but 1 is .001″ longer than the other.  I will fire these 1 more time and I should be done.  In the process I have been increasing the powder charge and I am now at 2600 fps with a 95 gr. bullet.  Factory was 2540 with a 112 gr. bullet. I am going to trade some powder to my friend in exchange he will machine some more brass for me.  Hopefully after Cody I will be able to send the brass to Whidden and get some dies made.

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August 16, 2023 - 4:37 pm
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Haven’t updated this for awhile.  My friend machined 25 ea. new 220 Swift cases for me and I fire formed and shot 3 of them 4 times.  I have settled on 30 grs. of 4064 with the 95 grain Hornady SST hunting bullet.  I have made initial contact with Whidden Gunworks to have a custom f/l sizing die and a bullet seating die made.  If all goes well I should have the dies in 8 to 10 weeks.

I also bought a half full UMC box of ammo. (2 clips and 10 rounds)  So if I could find another 4 Winchester rounds I could fill the Winchester box by using one of the clips in the UMC box.  The clips with the correct patent date are what is the hardest to find.

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October 19, 2023 - 7:30 pm
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Update, I got an email from Whidden that my dies have shipped.  Said it would take 8 to 10 weeks.  Took 9.  Better than waiting 2 years from the other option and I’m sure way better quality too.  I use Whidden products for my long range guns.  First time for any of my Winchesters.

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October 20, 2023 - 1:42 am
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Cool! Things are coming together. 

 

Mike

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October 20, 2023 - 4:55 pm
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Mike, I wish I could see 100 yds without a scope.  I’d like to play around with this cartridge to see if I could get it to really shoot well.  This was my last Winchester center fire that I didn’t have a set of reloading dies.  You know I have been shooting my Henry and 66 without dies.  I doubt that anyone would make dies for the 44 rim fire?  The S&W 44 special brass cut to length works.  It’s getting it to go off.  I’ve been using some modified cases with bullets I have formed from 45 Colt.

I guess I need to buy another gun in some obsolete caliber that I don’t already have?  Even with my long range guns once I figure out a load for a certain bullet I get bored and find another bullet or powder to play with.

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October 20, 2023 - 5:59 pm
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Chuck said
 

I guess I need to buy another gun in some obsolete caliber that I don’t already have?  Even with my long range guns once I figure out a load for a certain bullet I get bored and find another bullet or powder to play with.  

That is one of the more prominent signs that you are a “True” Gun Nut

You Just Might Be a Gun Nut:

 ….if you ever seriously thought about dabbing a little Hoppe’s #9 on your neck before going out on a date.

 ….if you buy some checkering tools, checker all your gun stocks, and then start on the bedposts.

 ….if you cannot recall how many firearms you own.

 ….if you buy a gun that’s just like that other gun you have except the barrel is 1/2″ shorter (or longer).

 ….if you buy a gun at a shop only to find out you used to own it a couple of years ago.

 ….if you know 12 different names for one caliber of cartridge.

 ….if you ever clean a gun that hasn’t been shot in the week since you cleaned it last.

 ….if you consider naming your unborn child Winchester, or Colt, or Remington, etc.

 ….if you purchased two Glocks and two Sigs just to see which brand was better.

 ….if your drive to work is filled with reverie about why Ed’s Red actually works.

 ….if you strip all the paint off our car and refinish it with cold blue.

 ….if you ever bought ammo in a caliber for which you have no gun, because you thought some day you MIGHT get a gun in that caliber.

 ….if your collection of American Rifleman back issues, Gun Digests and reloading manuals cost you a premium the last time you moved.

 ….if you have more than one gun that “kills on both ends.”

 ….if you buy high capacity magazines for a gun you have not bought yet.

 ….if you take your guns out of the safe each night and handle them, just so you can wipe them off before putting them away.

 ….if your mother-in-law asks what new gun junk you want for Christmas this year.

 ….if you see TV footage of the war in Iraq and wish you were there to pick up the brass.

 ….if you drive 300 miles just to ogle (and fire) HK-MP5s (and Stens, Uzis, BMGs and whatever else shows up at Knob Creek).

 ….if you keep a loaded gun hidden in every room in the house, including the bathroom and kitchen, “just in case,” and then keep one on you at all times just in case someone breaks in while you’re in the hallway.

 ….if you consider it unpatriotic not to own at least one .45 and one .22.

 ….if you named your pocket pistol “Little Guy” and your 12 gauge “Big Jake.”

 ….if you own reloading dies for calibers that you do not shoot.

 ….if you tape American Shooter so you can pause, reverse and fast forward to do a complete analysis of the show.

 ….if you understand Smith & Wesson’s model numbers.

 ….if you ever bought two brands of the same weight and type of bullet, just to see if one “shot better.”

 ….if you keep a collection of different cartridges at your place of work as a “conversation piece.”

 ….if you take your wife on vacation to a gun show for your 10th Anniversary and she is as excited to go as you are.

 ….if you ever had to explain, “It’s NOT the same gun, it’s a different VARIANT . . . “

 ….if you and your new father-in-law go to a gun show on your wedding day.

 ….if you have life memberships in more than one shooting organization.

 ….if you read that “Brady II” would outlaw possession of more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition and think, “I have more than that rolling around loose in the trunk of my car!”

 ….if watching The Lion King gives you the itch for a .470 Nitro Express.

 ….if, while watching the movie Terminator 2, you have to leave the room in tears and mournful sobs after Arnold Schwarzenegger throws the CAR-16 off the moving tractor trailer and it goes bouncing away.

 ….if you go to three different gun shows within a month and you’re excited every single time.

 ….if your guns are cleaner than your residence.

 ….if you have 5 different guns being DROS’d at 3 different FFL dealers.

 ….if you plunked down a $130 deposit on a Seecamp after waiting two years for them to accept your order, and are still willing to wait another two years for them to make your pistol.

 ….if your mom gives you a new Springfield Armory .308 sniper rifle for Christmas.

 ….if four local gun shops know you by name.

 ….if you have your own BATF agent (mounted any suitable way).

 ….if you’re friends with 90% of the employees at all the local gun shops.

 ….if you identify the gun on the cover of Dillon’s Blue Press before you even notice the girl.

 ….if, when you stop in at the local gun shop, they ask you questions like: “How was work?” “How are the wife and kids?” “We’re gonna order some food, ya want in?” etc.

 ….if you have more gunpowder stashed in your home than your local sporting goods store has on hand.

 ….if you can wallpaper your house with old issues of Shotgun News, Gun List, Guns & Ammo, etc.

 ….if all of your children are life members of the NRA.

 ….if your children are named “Ogive” and “Meplat.”

 ….if you make $50 per hour at work, but spend 30 minutes on your knees at the range looking for that last piece of .40 S&W brass.

 ….if you have Brownells and Midway on speed dial.

 ….if you trimmed down 100 10mm cases to form .357 Sig brass before commercial supplies of this brass were available.

 ….if the custom door lock pulls on your Jeep are .223 Rem cases and the gear shift knob is a .50 BMG.

 ….if your girl friend thinks that aura of Hoppes #9 is your favorite after shave.

 ….if you have guns in your safe that you can’t for the life of you remember how you came by.

 ….if you tag pages in SGN/GL for later reference.

 ….if you own enough guns to arm everyone on your block.

 ….if you own 4 AR-15’s configured EXACTLY the same but by different manufactures (Colt, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, Armalite, etc.) just because you can.

 ….if the last 5 guns you bought are never to be fired.

 ….if, when buying a new gun, you plead with your gun shop to keep it until you have space for it.

 ….if your wife wants to wear black leather so you buy her a carry holster.

 ….if you have Trijicon Night-Lights in your bedroom.

 ….if your mailbox has a Weaver Rail on top.

 ….if you can’t figure out why your non-shooting friends laugh when you say, “Bushmaster.”

  ….if you build a gun rack in your bedroom and its closer to you than your wife.

 ….if you can identify gunshots from faraway as to the caliber, whether from a rifle or pistol, brand of gun, grains of powder used, *what* powder and at what velocity.

 ….if you ever stumbled across a cache of once-fired brass for a caliber you don’t own, but hoarded it anyway.

 ….if your answer to the recent rec.guns newsgroup thread, “How many guns do you need?” is, “How many do you have room for in your house?”

 ….if you stockpiled thousands of primers during the infamous “Primer Famine of 1994.”

 ….if a friend knows you reload and gives you a set of dies of a caliber you do not already have, and you go out and buy a gun so you can use the FREE dies.

 ….if, when you do the wash, several spent casings fall out of your rolled-up sleeves.

 ….if you go to a gun show and contemplate buying a particular gun for a half an hour before you remember that you already have that one.

 ….if, when you go to the magazine rack, you check the “Guns and Ammo” cover to see if there are new guns as compared to checking the Playboy cover to see what it is offering.

 ….if you own more reloading manuals than Bibles.

 ….if you own a BAYONET for a gun you haven’t bought yet.

 ….if you buy a gun that is a duplicate of one you already have because the original one might break someday . . .

 ….if you name your first-born boy MAK90.

 ….if you’d rather have a $10,000 PSG-1 and drive a $600 car, rather than drive a $10,000 car and have a $600 gun.

 ….if you preach how stupid gun laws/bans are at work when you work in a predominantly ANTI-gun company.

 ….if you would rather ban alcohol than high-capacity clips/magazines.

 ….if you name your first-born girl Ladysmith.

 ….if your kid’s disposable diapers come in camo battle packs.

 ….if it bothers you more when 007 runs out of ammo than when the BOND girl dies.

 ….if your key-ring fob is a converted .50BMG cartridge.

 ….if your driver’s license says “must wear night-vision goggles.”

 ….if you watch La Femme Nikita just to see the HK MP5s.

 ….if “Miller Time” means plinking at beer cans.

 ….if the highlight of your week is discovering that six .40 S&W hollow points fit perfectly in a plastic 35mm film canister (five up/one down in the middle).

 ….if you put a Hogue Grip on your car’s parking brake.

 ….if you retrofit a laser sight to your TV remote control.

 ….if it takes you several minutes leafing through “Small Arms of the World” to find a gun you have never fired.

 ….if you have a callus on your shoulder.

 ….if you’ve ever sent a scope (that was never dropped) back to Leupold for repair.

 ….if factories ask *you* how well their guns hold up.

 ….if Hornady’s largest Midwestern distributor informs you that you’ve bought over half of all the Vector ammo they’ve ever had in stock.

 ….if you even had the thought, “I wonder what scale little kids Animal Crackers are, compared to Regulation silhouettes?”

 ….if your standard Sunday afternoon question to guys selling surplus ammo at gun shows is “How much for all of it, so you don’t have to lug it home?”

 ….if RCBS asked *you* for load data for the .357 Sig (before it was published).

 ….if you shoot enough Berdan-primed ammo that you are on a first-name basis with your local scrap metal dealer.

 ….if, upon seeing your 1978 wildcatting project (a .375 on a .50 Sharps 3 1/4″ case, 3340 FPS with a 300 Sierra boat tail), Elmer Keith says “You’re nuts!”

 ….if Keith Francis (at JGS, the chambering reamer company), answers your phone calls “What have you dreamed up *this* time?”

 ….if you own a firearm listed in the Guinness Book of World Records.

 ….if you go to a marriage counselor, he asks you which you like better, shooting or sex, and you think it’s the stupidest question you’ve ever heard.

 ….if you’re in the army reserves, and they can’t figure out why every time they send you out to shoot the M60 with 100 rounds, you return with a  shot-out barrel (it never dawns on them you’re bringing your own ammo).

  ….if you keep a copy of one of Elmer Keith’s books on your coffee table.

 ….if you spend more on ammo each month than on food.

 ….if you list your local FFL dealer as a dependent on your tax return.

 ….if a topless joint with free admission is half a mile away, and instead you drive 40 miles to the shooting range on a Saturday night.

 ….if you alternate Silvertips and Hydra-Shocks in your magazines because they look prettier that way.

 ….if you guess range and windage whenever you look at road signs.

 ….if you have more .50 caliber ammo cans than the local U. S. Army Reserves armory.

 ….if your gun collection is worth more than your automobile.

 ….if you have to run out to the range this weekend to shoot up some ammo because you need some brass to reload.

 ….if seeing Joe Biden’s picture automatically sends you into Condition Orange.

AND FINALLY,

 ….if you’re still reading this inane list.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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October 24, 2023 - 11:43 pm
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Just opened the box from Whidden with the new full length sizing die and the micrometer adjustable bullet seating die.  Here is a picture of the die and the equipment I use to size the brass and set the headspace then seat the bullet.  The seating die is on the left.  Then a bullet comparator to measure and seat the bullets where you want them. Next is the full length sizing die taken apart. Above the die is a bushing that goes into the top of the die to squeeze the case neck to the size you want.  Right of that is the assembly that goes into the die.  Depending on how far you install this part sets how much of the neck gets sized.  Note that the decapping pin and expander have been removed and won’t be used.  Below the decapping pin is the expander mandrel that will expand the neck to the exact size I wish.   Along the bottom is a caliper with the case tool attached so you can measure the headspace of the case. 

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November 1, 2023 - 9:59 pm
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Haven’t had much time to mess with the new dies.  I did adjust the full length sizing die and sized a couple of cases that I had been shooting.  I also pre set the bullet seating die.  I need to anneal the 22 pieces of brass that have not been fired so I can expand the necks. Then full length size them.  Remember, I removed the decapping pin and expander ball.  I use a universal decapping die that fits all the calibers of brass I own.  Once they are all full length sized I will run the expander mandrel into the necks so they are all .002″ under the bullet diameter.  In my full length sizing die is a bushing that reduces the neck diameter farther than needed to allow the expander mandrel to set my neck tension at .002″.  Next is to prime, add powder and seat the bullets.

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November 23, 2023 - 7:28 pm
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Still really no good update.  I have reloaded the 25 cases but have not been able to shoot any of it.  Bad wind and a bad knee that decided it was time to give me problems.  So, even if I could walk the hills the wind in the canyon is so bad my targets won’t stay put. I probably will shoot these at 50 yds because I can sort of see the sights and the target at this range.

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November 23, 2023 - 11:14 pm
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Take care of that knee! I wanted to take advantage of a beautiful day in N TX (no wind!) but while I was finishing up another project it got a little hazy. I need all the help I can get with peeps!
And yes, anything over 50 yards with peeps or open sights is not fair to the rifle.

 

 

Mike

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Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
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November 24, 2023 - 6:13 pm
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Mike, I hurt this knee at least 40 years ago riding motorcycles in the mountains.  Took me about 2 years to fully recover.  It usually does not bother me much at all.  But when walking the hills a few weeks ago it got sore .  Only got worse but now seems to be getting better.  I’m hoping the weather and my knee lets me shoot on Tuesday.  The Lee and a Model 52 I got a few weeks ago are what I hope to shoot.  I swapped a Lyman scope off another 52 and haven’t had the chance to get it on paper at 100 yds.

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November 26, 2023 - 12:09 am
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I slipped out to the range yesterday and as a result I’m casting bullets tonight. Problem with having different furnaces for different alloys is sometimes the tags get lost. 
Some of those things I thought I’d recovered from have come back to haunt me, too. Hope you get in some trigger time soon!

 

Mike

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Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
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