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I realized that I had not posted this picture before. After I made the slug I ran it through the barrel.
Chuck said
I realized that I had not posted this picture before. After I made the slug I ran it through the barrel.
Thanks. It certainly confused people over the years – that Winchester called it a .236.
The Keene is an interesting repeating rifle. One downside is that every time you fire the rifle and cycle the action, you have to manually cock the hammer.
Steve, many different rounds are called something different than the actual diameter of the bullets. The .236″ is the land dimension as opposed to the .243″ groove dimension. The Military guns are marked -U.S.N.- and the commercial guns are marked .236 U.S.N. The rounds I have are marked WRACo 6m/m U.S.N. Below is a picture of the slug I showed in a previous post showing the groove diameter. This time I rotated it and now it shows the lands diameter.
Just a couple of examples. 38-40 is actually a 40-40 and a 357 is actually a 38 caliber. My 256 Newton shoots 6.5 mm or .264″ bullets. .256″ is the lands dimension.
Another thing I haven’t talked about is the fact that the Lee Navy round was the first round chambered for the M 1895 Colt-Browning Machine Gun (potato digger). When the Army adopted the 30-40 Krag rifle the machine gun changed to the Krag round. I’ve seen 20 round boxes that say for Machine Gun but have never seen a round from these boxes. I have only seen pictures of the belt fed ammo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt%E2%80%93Browning_machine_gun
Chuck said
Steve, many different rounds are called something different than the actual diameter of the bullets. The .236″ is the land dimension as opposed to the .243″ groove dimension. The Military guns are marked -U.S.N.- and the commercial guns are marked .236 U.S.N. The rounds I have are marked WRACo 6m/m U.S.N. Below is a picture of the slug I showed in a previous post showing the groove diameter. This time I rotated it and now it shows the lands diameter.
Just a couple of examples. 38-40 is actually a 40-40 and a 357 is actually a 38 caliber. My 256 Newton shoots 6.5 mm or .264″ bullets. .256″ is the lands dimension.
Chuck you are correct of course. I once challenged someone by asking if they could name any .44 caliber handgun or rifle. They thought that was about the easiest challenge ever and starting naming off .44 magnum, .44 special, .444 Marlin and so on. I had my Cartridge of the World handy to provide proof that every round they named was not .44 caliber, and in fact most, just shy of .43 caliber.
I suppose Winchester liked the .236 designation as they wanted their round to sound like it was fast. And to their credit, for the times, it really was fast.
The rest of the world simply called it a 6MM. Winchester eventually got it right when they released the 243 Winchester. Remington was still confused and used both the 6 MM and 244 Rem nomens.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Steve, many different rounds are called something different than the actual diameter of the bullets. The .236″ is the land dimension as opposed to the .243″ groove dimension. The Military guns are marked -U.S.N.- and the commercial guns are marked .236 U.S.N. The rounds I have are marked WRACo 6m/m U.S.N. Below is a picture of the slug I showed in a previous post showing the groove diameter. This time I rotated it and now it shows the lands diameter.
Just a couple of examples. 38-40 is actually a 40-40 and a 357 is actually a 38 caliber. My 256 Newton shoots 6.5 mm or .264″ bullets. .256″ is the lands dimension.
I think you meant the (modern) 38 was actually a .357 (or .358), Chuck. Also all .32’s are not created equal, same with .45’s. I cast .321 and .323 bullets for my .32’s and my .45’s take round balls, 452 or .459 bullets. And yes, Steve, 44 fans are mostly unaware they’re shooting .43’s.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Chuck said
Steve, many different rounds are called something different than the actual diameter of the bullets. The .236″ is the land dimension as opposed to the .243″ groove dimension. The Military guns are marked -U.S.N.- and the commercial guns are marked .236 U.S.N. The rounds I have are marked WRACo 6m/m U.S.N. Below is a picture of the slug I showed in a previous post showing the groove diameter. This time I rotated it and now it shows the lands diameter.
Just a couple of examples. 38-40 is actually a 40-40 and a 357 is actually a 38 caliber. My 256 Newton shoots 6.5 mm or .264″ bullets. .256″ is the lands dimension.
I think you meant the (modern) 38 was actually a .357 (or .358), Chuck. Also all .32’s are not created equal, same with .45’s. I cast .321 and .323 bullets for my .32’s and my .45’s take round balls, 452 or .459 bullets. And yes, Steve, 44 fans are mostly unaware they’re shooting .43’s.
Mike
That sure applies to the .32’s. Quite a range when you compare the .32-20 to the .32 special, etc. Even the .32-40 Bullard is a wildcard. One section of Cartridges of the World specifies .312 and another section specifies .315. Either way, quite different than the .32-40 used in Winchester rifles.
TXGunNut said
I think you meant the (modern) 38 was actually a .357 (or .358), Chuck. Also all .32’s are not created equal, same with .45’s. I cast .321 and .323 bullets for my .32’s and my .45’s take round balls, 452 or .459 bullets. And yes, Steve, 44 fans are mostly unaware they’re shooting .43’s.
Mike
You are absolutely correct. My bad.
With all of the confusion that is why I always slug the barrels when doing load development on a new gun.
Loaded 2 rounds yesterday. Winchester large rifle primers. Used IMR 4064. One was loaded with 23 grains and the other 25. I do not have a shell holder or correct seating die so I just set the case in the press and used my 6.5 Creedmoor die. Since the new bullets are so much shorter than the originals I marked the bullet where I wanted it to be seated and gradually pressed the first bullet in to the mark. After seating the first one I used a bullet comparator to measure the base of the case to bullet ogive and set the second one to this measurement. Rule of thumb is you want at least 1 to 2 bullet diameters in the case. These are closer to 3. I plan to shoot these on Tuesday. Once I fire these I’ll have a good idea what the powder charge should be. I don’t have a die to resize the necks so I am going to use a neck bushing to squeeze the neck. Just haven’t figured out how and then how to pull the case out of the bushing?
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
TXGunNut said
I think you meant the (modern) 38 was actually a .357 (or .358), Chuck. Also all .32’s are not created equal, same with .45’s. I cast .321 and .323 bullets for my .32’s and my .45’s take round balls, 452 or .459 bullets. And yes, Steve, 44 fans are mostly unaware they’re shooting .43’s.
Mike
You are absolutely correct. My bad.
With all of the confusion that is why I always slug the barrels when doing load development on a new gun.
I understand, I overlooked the .455 bullets I use in the 45 ( not Long!) Colt but this is a Winchester forum, after all.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Loaded 2 rounds yesterday. Winchester large rifle primers. Used IMR 4064. One was loaded with 23 grains and the other 25. I do not have a shell holder or correct seating die so I just set the case in the press and used my 6.5 Creedmoor die. Since the new bullets are so much shorter than the originals I marked the bullet where I wanted it to be seated and gradually pressed the first bullet in to the mark. After seating the first one I used a bullet comparator to measure the base of the case to bullet ogive and set the second one to this measurement. Rule of thumb is you want at least 1 to 2 bullet diameters in the case. These are closer to 3. I plan to shoot these on Tuesday. Once I fire these I’ll have a good idea what the powder charge should be. I don’t have a die to resize the necks so I am going to use a neck bushing to squeeze the neck. Just haven’t figured out how and then how to pull the case out of the bushing?
Maybe a quarter inch dowel to tap it out from above?
Mike
Here is a picture of a neck bushing. These usually go in a full length sizing die that holds bushings. (see Redding Type S bushing dies) These come in .001″ increments and along with an expander mandrel that comes in .0005″ increments you can easily control your neck tension. I have a special set up for my 45 cal cartridges. Cases like the 45-75 can be damaged when the improper expander is used. You sometimes crush the “neck” when seating the bullet.
https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/118-type-s-bushing-dies
I might be able to use the 6.5 CM die that I have to press the case into the bushing but since I don’t have a shell holder I may have to remove the top of the die and tap the case out the bottom like Mike said. I will have to use something smaller that 1/4″ because the ID of the neck will be less than .241″. My expander mandrel will make the ID .241″ to give me .002″ neck tension for the .243″ bullets. This is all based upon what happens to the neck when fired. I may have to use a different bushing if .002″ neck tension is not enough. When fired the case expands and seals the chamber. If there isn’t enough neck tension powder will escape and blow down the side of the case.
Shot my 2 rounds yesterday. Got some info but not all that I wanted. The first round with 23 grains of 4064 shot at 1845 FPS. It ejected fine. The 2nd round loaded with 25 grains shot fine but did not eject. I did not get a FPS on this one. The range officials where asking me questions and I didn’t realize that my chrono went to sleep. I was expecting ejection issues so I had brought along a 22 rod for ejecting. Measured the brass after firing. I see no changes except the neck opened up. I was surprised that the shoulder didn’t lengthen some? But I am about 800 FPS below where I want to be. Next time I will load the 25 grains again and the other one at 27 grains.
I received some items I had ordered for resizing the neck and turning the rim. I still haven’t received my new 220 Swift brass. Been going back and forth with CH4D. They have a shell holder but can’t get a price out of them yet. I received some stripper clips from S & S Firearms. The cases as they are now won’t go in the clips. When I have the ejector groove cut deeper it also has to be cut a little wider to reduce the rim thickness. I have 2 original clips but these are worth a lot of money. The originals have an 1895 Patent date on them. When loaded and the ammo is fired these fall out the bottom and weren’t picked up. Commercial 20 round boxes didn’t come with clips. Military ammo came on clips or belts depending on rifle or machine gun usage.
Warms my heart to see love for the Winchester-Lee! Had to make an account to throw in my two cents on some things.
I’m interested to see if you have luck with getting Redding to make dies. I ordered a set from CH4D about a year ago. From the lead time estimate they gave me, it’ll be about another year before I get them. I also got some custom 6mm USN brass from RCC, which I have been rationing for now. I’ve been seating with a .243 Win die. I’m gearing up to start converting .220, but haven’t dived in to it yet.
My theory on the Glenn DeRuiter rifle explosion (and the more recent Robert Bouie explosion) is that both were due to brass conversion from .30-40. A few sources have said that’s what Glenn was using, and Robert himself told me that’s what he used (he survived with some metal pieces embedded in his face; rifle split at the receiver ring). I sent some of my proper 6mm USN brass to a metallurgist friend to compare against some .30-40 brass. The .30-40 case head is about half as thick before the extractor groove is cut. That combined with the mediocre case head support and the poor gas mitigation of the rifle is a recipe for disaster.
For projectiles, I’m currently using Hornady 105gr HPBTs. I started with 31gr IMR4895 based on some load data from a 2014 American Rifleman article. It successfully fired without any concerning signs on the brass. I switched to a discontinued Speer 105gr round nose with no other changes to the load. First round pierced a primer, and the second one blew out a primer pocket, so those are shelved for now. After some tinkering in QuickLoad, 4350 seemed to give lower pressures. My current load is the HPBT with 33gr H4350 as a mild load. Pmax is shy of 32ksi, and muzzle velocity from the military rifle is around 2475 fps. Could probably work it up to 34gr or 35gr since there is quite a bit of head room left with that pressure. Any higher than 35 and you start to approach QL’s suggested 47ksi max pressure. Haven’t had a chance to see how it groups yet.
I’m working with a few other guys to try to get some custom 112gr round noses made based off of the original Winchester drawing from Cody’s archives, but we are having problems finding someone willing to take the job. The annoying part about using spitzers is that the magazine uses the bullet to help hold the cartridges straight, so they likely don’t feed as well.
Lastly, those S&S repro clips are pretty bad. They don’t work at all with proper rims either. If you’re ever willing to let one of your two original clips go, I might be interested.
I filmed shooting mine from a first person perspective for anyone that wants to live vicariously:
Nice to see someone else shooting these guns. The stories of the problems people have had are filled mostly with conjecture. Some have even changed their stories over the years.
I got a quote from CH4D this morning for the shell holder and a die set. I am going to order the shell holder but probably not the dies. These guys will take a couple years to fill the order. I really am not happy with the 2 sets of dies they made for other calibers I have. Redding has told me that they will make the dies if I send them some fired brass. I’m sure the cost will be a lot more than what CH4D wants. Redding has to make a custom reamer based upon my brass. It may come down to who will fill the order sooner. RCC has been a dead end for me on more than one cartridge and most production is on HOLD?
I wonder how the 220 Swift head compares? Some have had luck and did not have to cut the extractor groove. In my case there will have to be some cutting but it will be more to widen than deepen the groove. MY gun is serial #8001. It was shipped, June 29, 1897, in the last shipment for the original first 10,000 ordered by the Navy.
I reloaded my 2 cases yesterday. I may have to get a different neck bushing because I’m getting a little more neck tension than what I wanted but this won’t stop my progress. I have a Forester co-ax press that uses jaws instead of shell holders so it was easy getting the necks out of the die. I increased the powder charge but it will still be under the 2650 FPS. I like going up slowly and watching the brass closely.
I’ll keep an eye out for some original clips. These start at around $150 and go up from there. I paid $250 each for mine with 10 rounds included. My friend has an original belt, straps and bayonet scabbard that I will probably buy. I am not sure how hard it will be to find the bayonet?
I think RCC filed for bankruptcy not too long ago, so that window of opportunity is probably closed. The bayonets seems to pop up at least as often as the rifles do, but tend to be expensive. They’re also tricky to ID since they’re the same as Win ‘95 musket bayonets, just with smaller muzzle rings.
I’ve got a pair of factory sporters in addition to my 2nd Navy contract rifle. One in rough shape that I used to string test my first loads and a nicer one with a checkered buttplate and a factory installed Lyman No. 25 peep. That one had been having some feeding problems I haven’t been able to fix yet.
Tenacious Trilobite said
I think RCC filed for bankruptcy not too long ago, so that window of opportunity is probably closed. The bayonets seems to pop up at least as often as the rifles do, but tend to be expensive. They’re also tricky to ID since they’re the same as Win ‘95 musket bayonets, just with smaller muzzle rings.I’ve got a pair of factory sporters in addition to my 2nd Navy contract rifle. One in rough shape that I used to string test my first loads and a nicer one with a checkered buttplate and a factory installed Lyman No. 25 peep. That one had been having some feeding problems I haven’t been able to fix yet.
RCC has had problems for the last few years. I’m not sure if there was a death, the main machinist left or a divorce but something of that magnitude happened. I still have the last phone message that I received when things were already bad. 1/6/21.
I know about the differences between the 2 bayonets. The other difference is the ones for the Winchester 1895 lever gun had a larger locking groove. But, does the lever gun bayonet have the Twining inspector marks too? Don’t tell anyone but most of the bayonets were made by Remington. Not all say Remington though. The Winchester marked ones were for the civilian market and not for the Navy.
I shot my gun again yesterday. Haven’t had time to look at the data yet. Will post an update later.
I did shoot the Navy again. This time I even shot at a target. Sorry about the mess. If you look at the top my first shot is circled in the 3rd box from the left. The second shot hit in the orange center. The target was at 100 yds and it is very hard for me to see that far. 23 grains of 4064 got me 1845 fps, 25 grains was 2157 fps and 27 grains is 2329 fps. I’m shooting for 2650 fps.
I did receive the shell holder from CH Tool and Die, CH4D. Keeping up with their past performances the case will not even start to go in. I sent them a diagram that shows the dimensions of the case and asked them to look at the rim diameter and thickness. Had the same type of service from S&S Firearms on the stripper clips. I think I might be able to save these???
The mess is from doing a powder ladder test to obtain the optimum charge weight for my 308. After fire forming the brass you go through this procedure to find speed nodes where your fps goes flat and is stable. Shot 3 shot groups from 43.2 grains to 46.4 grains in .2 grain increments. Found a few and will re-shoot these to verify and eventually pick one. At this point the bullet is seated at some arbitrary depth. I will work on seating depth after I verify my charge weight. Then you go back and fine tune the powder. I will go through a couple boxes of bullets just to get my load figured out. If you change bullets or powder you will have to do this all over. I fell into this rabbit hole a few years ago and I probably will never see the light of day again, as far as loading goes.
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