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RickC said
Bert may have some numbers on how many were in 25-20 SS.
I’m sure he does–they were not uncommon. The way it’s noted in the letter is somewhat ambiguous, but if it were the .25-20 repeater, I think it would have been called .25 WCF. The earliest .25-20 SSs were also marked .25 WCF, due to the company’s attempt to claim for their own a cartridge introduced by Maynard & Stevens, but after the .25-20 repeater cartridge came along shortly after 1892 the brl marking was changed to include “SS.”
Rick
RickC said
I recently looked at a high wall SINGLE SHOT 25-20 DOM 1909. The owner had described it as rare due to its caliber with a high wall configuration. It would be interesting to know what Winchester was thinking but I have to surmise what the customer wanted, the customer got.RickC
The owner is mistaken. The 25-20 Single Shot cartridge was almost equally split between the high-wall and low-wall rifle frames. In total, Winchester manufactured approximately 7,600 rifles in the 25-20 S.S. cartridge. It was made in all of the Rifle variations (Plain Sporting, Special Sporting, Special Single Shot, and Schuetzen). and in all barrel sizes (#1 through #5). This the one cartridge that Winchester could not make up their mind and settle on a specific frame size.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
RickC said
Like I said previous, it would be nice to know what Winchester or the production team was thinking or would allow.
They would “allow” anything a customer would pay for, if it was technically feasible to mfg.
Clarence nailed it dead square on the head in his response “They would “allow” anything a customer would pay for, if it was technically feasible to mfg.“
One thing to keep in mind, is that of all the many different Winchester Models manufactured in that era, the Single Shot was the one model that people very frequently special ordered. Winchester for the most part encouraged it with this model by offering it in so many different cartridges, barrel sizes, barrel lengths, and sight configurations.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
RickC said
Bert may have some numbers on how many were in 25-20 SS.
7,554 in the letterable serial number range, and at least (31) more in the 110000+ serial range. Of the (98) total different cartridges used in the Single Shot, the 25-20 S.S. is in the top ten for the number of them that were manufactured. It was a popular cartridge choice by target shooters of that era.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
clarence said
RickC said
Bert may have some numbers on how many were in 25-20 SS.
I’m sure he does–they were not uncommon. The way it’s noted in the letter is somewhat ambiguous, but if it were the .25-20 repeater, I think it would have been called .25 WCF. The earliest .25-20 SSs were also marked .25 WCF, due to the company’s attempt to claim for their own a cartridge introduced by Maynard & Stevens, but after the .25-20 repeater cartridge came along shortly after 1892 the brl marking was changed to include “SS.”
Winchester designated the 25-20 repeater cartridge as “25-20 WCF” or “25-20 R” in the ledger records. The 25-20 Single Shot was recorded in the records as “25 WCF” in the early years (beginning in 1890), and then later changed to “25-20” or sometimes “25-20 SS” in the ledger records. Winchester did not manufacture very many Single Shot rifles in the 25-20 W.C.F.. (repeater) cartridge, with just (48) of them in the letterable serial number range.
Not to spoil it for everyone, but the next issue of the WACA Collector magazine will definitively answer a lot of questions in regards to the cartridges Winchester chambered in the Single Shot Rifles, Muskets, and Carbines… so stay tuned.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
RickC said
Bert may have some numbers on how many were in 25-20 SS.
I have a high wall that is chambered for the 25-20 SS. It has a #3 barrel. I’ve seen 44 WCF’s in both low and high wall configuration.
Chuck said
I have a high wall that is chambered for the 25-20 SS. It has a #3 barrel. I’ve seen 44 WCF’s in both low and high wall configuration.
Chuck,
Winchester made a fair number of early production rifles in 32 WCF, 38 WCF, and 44 WCF that were high-walls, as they had not yet created the “low-wall”. Even after the low-wall entered the scene, Winchester continued to chamber the M/1873 cartridges in the high-wall for a few years. During that time period, there were a fair number of high-walls made with a small shank #1 barrel in those three cartridges.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
During that time period, there were a fair number of high-walls made with a small shank #1 barrel in those three cartridges.
Bert
I looked at one of those for sale yrs ago, though I don’t remember its chambering; what I DO remember is how strange that lt wt brl looked on a HW action–probably the reason I passed on it.
This topic has perplexed me as well. As far as I know, Winchester didn’t use the terms, “Model 1887” “High Wall” or “Low Wall.” Seems to me in the catalog, you had chambering options to choose from. And we know you could specify barrel lengths and weights. But, I really don’t know what terminology they offered to choose if you wanted a High Wall or Low Wall. I think mainly you ordered by chambering and they shipped you a rifle with the appropriate receiver for that cartridge. Which would explain why if you ordered a .22 you got a Low Wall and if you ordered a .45-70 you got a High Wall. Yet, we see small calibers in High Walls and larger calibers (e.g. the .38-56 referred to) in a Low Wall. I just wonder, if you wanted a .22 rimfire and wanted it in a High Wall – what terms were used? I can’t see that Winchester offered any terms. I think the only way the seller knew the difference was the photos in the catalogs. Maybe it was specified in some catalogs I haven’t seen?
steve004 said
I just wonder, if you wanted a .22 rimfire and wanted it in a High Wall – what terms were used?
In the first place, you’d be ill advised to do so, unless you enjoyed the annoyance of inserting the round into the breech between those “high walls.” This was the reason the Army wanted a LW type rcvr on the 3rd Model Musket, the M. 87.
However, if you wanted a #3 brl or heavier, or the CC or Schuetzen triggers, you’d have to put up with the annoyance, as those options weren’t offered on a LW rcvr. Some Schuetzen competitors had the right side wall milled down to facilitate loading; ugly but fuctional. (I think Campbell shows one very special order LW with DS triggers, so it could be done with special fitting not ordinarily offered.) Catalogs were no help at all so far as clarification of the rcvr. differences.
That .38-56 is an anomaly that breaks all the rules. Maybe the customer had a friend in high places, & of course, money always talks.
That low-wall in 38-56 WCF is not alone (or the only “rule breaker”). There was at least one low-wall made in 40-65 WCF, and I believe that a dozen or so were made in 32-40 and 38-55.
This is the low-wall in 40-65 WCF (and it letters)…
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for posting that .40-65 Low Wall. Very cool. The terminology (or lack of) continues to fascinate me with regard to the Winchester Single Shot rifle. I’ve mentioned my 1916 Winchester catalog offers several versions of the Single Shot rifle – and there is no reference to High Wall or Low Wall – or any acknowledgement at all to the two different receiver styles. In the, “Price List of Component Parts, Single Shot” a, “Receiver complete” is offered for $7.00. No reference to the fact that they are different receiver styles. So, how would a person order a High Wall or a Low Wall receiver? Winchester does state that when ordering parts, “always give their name and number, also caliber of rifle for which they are wanted. If possible, also give number of the rifle.” They were have it, I suppose. If you need a replacement receiver and order one from Winchester… if you specif your rifle is a .45-90, they’ll send a High Wall receiver; if you specify your rifle is a .32 Ideal, they’ll send a Low Wall receiver.
I still don’t understand why we see High Walls in .44-40 and Low Walls in 32-40. Yes, I know – they were ordered that way. But how????!!!!! What did they say?
steve004 said
But how????!!!!! What did they say?
About what I say when I’m looking for a part I don’t know the name of in a hardware or auto parts store–describe what it looks like & what it does as best I can. That it could be done this way is certainly no excuse for failing to identify clearly both rcvrs in the cat.
It seems to me that unless one had a low wall and a high wall side by side, the average consumer back then would not have noticed the difference. I should think the calibre and high wall vs low wall would be determined internally.
mrcvs said
It seems to me that unless one had a low wall and a high wall side by side, the average consumer back then would not have noticed the difference. I should think the calibre and high wall vs low wall would be determined internally.
The most common exception is low wall calibers in high walls. Sure, there is the .38-56, .40-65 exceptions, and as Bert mentioned a small number of others (e.g. 32-40’s) but much more often, we see low wall chamberings in high walls. To me, that has to mean the customer ordered it that way. How? Meaning: what words did they use to ask for what they wanted? In the catalogs, a person with an eye for detail, can clearly see the difference between the two frames. How did they describe what they saw – as Winchester didn’t supply the terms.
An existing letter from that era would help. Too bad Winchester stoked their furnaces over the years with such important correspondence.
steve004 said
… but much more often, we see low wall chamberings in high walls. To me, that has to mean the customer ordered it that way. How? Meaning: what words did they use to ask for what they wanted? In the catalogs, a person with an eye for detail, can clearly see the difference between the two frames. How did they describe what they saw – as Winchester didn’t supply the terms.
That is not the case, at least for several years into the production. I may not have emphasized it well enough in my previous replies in this topic, so let me do so now.
When the Winchester Single Shot rifle was introduced in September of 1885, it was only offered in the one frame size (high-wall). At that time, all the Model 1873 center fire cartridges were available in the Single Shot, so those cartridges “standard” per se. The (low-wall) was not created or available until May, 1886, and when it was introduced, it was only made for rim fire cartridges (predominantly the 22 Short). Winchester continued to use the (high-wall) receiver for the Model 1873 cartridges. This practice continued until serial numbers were in the 4500 range (late in the year 1886), when the first center fire low-wall Single Shot rifles were made. At that time, the Model 1873 center fire cartridges were still mostly made using a high-wall receiver. That practice continued for approximately another two-years, when Winchester began using the low-wall receiver predominantly for the Model 1873 cartridges. When the 25-20 Single Shot was introduced in 1890, Winchester offered it in either receiver size. The customer would have needed to specify which frame size was to be provided.
I will leave you with this comment… the Winchester Single Shot (Model 1885) production was the most convoluted of all models ever made by Winchester. With a total of (98) separate cartridges made, (9) different barrel sizes, and in lengths from 15-inches all the way up to 38-inches, and in (8) different variations, a “standard” Single Shot rifle is a rare occurrence!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for the history lesson Bert. No wonder it has been so difficult for me to get my head around this model. It is impressive – from the .22 short all the way to .577 caliber 
Bert H. said
The customer would have needed to specify which frame size was to be provided.
Bert
HOW the customer would specify which frame size, with no identification provided by catalogs or ads, is exactly the problem. As I said, a customer could describe in his own words what he wanted, but that’s a clumsy way to go about it, with an obvious potential for misunderstanding.
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