Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
TR said
In Les Quick’s book “The Henry Rifle” page 202 he talks about Henry’s converted to center fire. T/R
TR, I took a peak at that page #202 in Les Quick’s Book and he does Talk about some Later Henry’s being Converted to the Henry Center Fire Flat Cartridge like you stated as he points out that they we’re after Market work. He even talks about the Firing Pin/bolt work. Still Very Interesting. In trying to understand more and sort it out in my Mind. I’m thinking that the Last of the Original Henry Rifles,(into Serial # 14,000) we’re Mfg. about 1866 overlapping the First Model 1866 Winchester’s, (into the 12,000 Serial #’s), as the Serial #’s continued into the Model 1866 Rifle. With that being said Winchester’s development of the .44 Henry Center Fire Flat Cartridge which I understand was possibly created for these Model 66 Conversions was in 1891, 25 years after the last Henry was Mfg. as B.Tyler Henry somehow working at Winchester had to be in the experimental or if nothing else beginning stages of these Cartridges for the Center Fire Rifle/Carbine. IMO! Pure Speculation on my part based on what is and has been brought to light.
I to would like to see Recorded information on what we’re talking about here and possibly verifying things Further.
Antonio
Online
Burt Humphrey said
TR said
In Les Quick’s book “The Henry Rifle” page 202 he talks about Henry’s converted to center fire. T/R
I have never heard that before – is there any indication whether the conversion was done at the factory after Oliver Winchester bought the company or after they left the factory by gunsmith’s? The old guys who would have knowledge about this are all gone. A good source would be Norm Vagley – he is at all the major gun shows. In a previous post you had mentioned a stamp/mark to designate a conversion – do you have a photo of one of these. And, as noted before, I would love to see a Cody letter noting a conversion to center fire. In Antonio’s original post he mentioned possible contract work by Winchester to do the conversion – if anyone has documentation regarding this please share.
Burt,
To be honest, it was a long time ago and I like early 66’s in rim fire. They were at the end of production. Other than those two all were non-factory work. I have no insight, pictures, or documents just an opinion that if it isn’t factory caliber marked on the barrel it isn’t factory.
A lot of the Henrys in Les Quicks’s book are Norm Vegel’s, he would be able to answer your questions off the top of his head. He was at the last Tulsa show as usual. The last number I have is 314-821-6174 Kirkwood Missouri. T/R
Freebird 68 Had some interesting information that he added from the I.A.A. Cartridge Collectors as Mike Carrick was in Brazil on a Trip and posted on that Forum in May of 2018 an Order of 1000 C.F. Carbines we’re ordered from Winchester and it was suggested the .44S&W American be used but Winchester most certainly did not want S&W on their Firearm designating a Caliber, Hence the inception in 1891 of the .44 Henry Center Fire Flat. In 1891 I’m pretty sure that the serial #167865 was the earliest mfg. by Winchester in the Model 1866. So 1866’s we’re serial numbered after that serial number as has been printed.
Antonio
The S&W 44 Special case, when shortened, is the correct case to make a center fire for the Henry or 1866.
TR said
A lot of the Henrys in Les Quicks’s book are Norm Vegel’s, he would be able to answer your questions off the top of his head. He was at the last Tulsa show as usual. The last number I have is 314-821-6174 Kirkwood Missouri. T/R
Yes, and so are my friend Doug’s guns. I have had a lot of conversations with Les, Doug and Norm. Doug gave me the one center fire cartridge that I have. If Norm shows up in Greeley and I don’t forget I’ll have a conversation with him.
I still need to call Lou Behling. He probably knows more about the cartridges than any of the others.
I did not find any info in Wiley Swords or Bruce McDowell’s books.
TXGunNut said
It’s a rhetorical question for me as I have no plans to acquire a Model 1866 in any configuration. I think it would depend on the intentions of the collector. As a collector who loves shooting old Winchesters I’d be more interested in the CF as there’s a decent chance I’d be able to make ammo for it. I don’t think the purist collector would be much interested in an undocumented conversion and a range trip wouldn’t mean much to them. That would be fine with the shooter/collector as it might make the CF guns a bit more affordable. As far as a factory CF gun I’d consider myself fortunate to be able to examine one at arm’s length.
Mike
I don’t think, if I was in the market for another 66, that I would hesitate buying a CF. As long as it looks like it has the correct bolt face. Bushing present and no signs of ground off strikers.
At this point no one has proof of which ones were Factory.
Chuck said
TXGunNut said
It’s a rhetorical question for me as I have no plans to acquire a Model 1866 in any configuration. I think it would depend on the intentions of the collector. As a collector who loves shooting old Winchesters I’d be more interested in the CF as there’s a decent chance I’d be able to make ammo for it. I don’t think the purist collector would be much interested in an undocumented conversion and a range trip wouldn’t mean much to them. That would be fine with the shooter/collector as it might make the CF guns a bit more affordable. As far as a factory CF gun I’d consider myself fortunate to be able to examine one at arm’s length.
Mike
I don’t think, if I was in the market for another 66, that I would hesitate buying a CF. As long as it looks like it has the correct bolt face. Bushing present and no signs of ground off strikers.
At this point no one has proof of which ones were Factory.
If you have the conversation with Norm Vagley, ask him about any kind of stamp/mark which designated a factory conversion. If some were/are stamped it seems more likely to me it was done by Winchester rather than some gunsmith – is Norm aware of any photos of one converted and stamped? There are lots of 66’s which can be lettered so it seems like somone would have owned or seen one of these. What about the large number of 66’s supposedly sent to Brazil – seems like if Winchester changed the caliber, they would have in some way noted it with the logical choice being a stamp. I just don’t see Winchester letting a 66 go out the door as as .44 center fire without noting the change in the records and properly stamped on the gun. I wonder if Rob Kassab knows more about this as he has lots of early guns with historical significance. I don’t see me owning another 66 but I find this little piece of Winchester history very interesting.
I can’t say there isn’t or wasn’t records for the CF guns. All we know is that we haven’t seen any. There is a lot of missing info on the 66’s. Take a look at how many can’t be lettered. I firmly believe that some center fires were made at the factory and were shipped, not only to Brazil but other foreign countries. Take a look at what Winchester was doing at this point in time. They were trying vary hard to sell guns to whomever they could. Especially to foreign countries. After the Civil War they couldn’t get the lucrative Military contracts they hoped for. If no guns were made why do we have examples of the CF rounds? We all need to keep looking.
A lot of good points here. I also find interesting that Mike Carrick’s research as Stated in May of 2018 in the ICC Post He stated that he found information at the Mckracken research ctr. in Cody Wyoming.
Interesting enough in itself I also find interesting that when Brazil placed their order in 1891 and they wanted a Center Fire Cartridge in .44 Caliber is it a coincidence that the 1891 Moisin Nagant Fired the .44 Brazilian Nagant that would fire in the Model 1866 Winchester and the Nagant handgun of the same Caliber? IMO I don’t think it’s a coincidence. We can keep Speculating as we all can agree on but like others have said until we have Documented Proof and even a few specimens that have been stamped .44 Henry Center Fire or 44 CF to accommodate the Brazilian Nagant Designation it will remain Speculation Naturally. I’m Betting it will come out in the near Future and we’ll be able to possibly prove some more of this information. IMO!
Burt I love your 66 Carbine as I had one very Similar in great Condition like yours also but It wound up in Norm Vegley’s collection in a weaker moment! 
Antonio
Rob emailed me.
“Hello Chuck,
Yes, they did make the model 1866 in centerfire. Just a small quantity of rifles towards the end of the production.”
I emailed back asking if he knew someone that would have more information.
In Arthur Pirkle’s book ‘Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms” volume 1 page 40 he makes this statement “An original M1866 carbine in the circa serial #165,000 range sold in Brazil and marked “44 B has been observed. It was chambered for the 44 Henry Centerfire cartridge. Presumably, the “B” indicates “Brazil.” T/R
TR said
In Arthur Pirkle’s book ‘Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms” volume 1 page 40 he makes this statement “An original M1866 carbine in the circa serial #165,000 range sold in Brazil and marked “44 B has been observed. It was chambered for the 44 Henry Centerfire cartridge. Presumably, the “B” indicates “Brazil.” T/R
From The Winchester Handbook by Madis regarding the Model 1866 (page 16) – ” Throughout production the standard caliber for the 66 was the 44 Henry rimfire. A few centerfire arms were produced: of these, records note that 1020 were converted to centerfire and shipped to Brazil in 1891. Prior to this, very few centerfire guns were made. Many conversions were done outside of the factory, and a fair number of guns were re-chambered to fire other cartridges, both centerfire and rimfire”.
Also on page 16, Madis says ” some later barrels may have the 44 RF beginning at the end of the 156,000 serial series” and after serial number 160,000 a few elevators are stamped 44 Cal.”
Note Madis says “records note”. So, he must have found documentation somewhere.
Antonio said
A lot of good points here. I also find interesting that Mike Carrick’s research as Stated in May of 2018 in the ICC Post He stated that he found information at the Mckracken research ctr. in Cody Wyoming.Interesting enough in itself I also find interesting that when Brazil placed their order in 1891 and they wanted a Center Fire Cartridge in .44 Caliber is it a coincidence that the 1891 Moisin Nagant Fired the .44 Brazilian Nagant that would fire in the Model 1866 Winchester and the Nagant handgun of the same Caliber? IMO I don’t think it’s a coincidence. We can keep Speculating as we all can agree on but like others have said until we have Documented Proof and even a few specimens that have been stamped .44 Henry Center Fire or 44 CF to accommodate the Brazilian Nagant Designation it will remain Speculation Naturally. I’m Betting it will come out in the near Future and we’ll be able to possibly prove some more of this information. IMO!
Burt I love your 66 Carbine as I had one very Similar in great Condition like yours also but It wound up in Norm Vegley’s collection in a weaker moment!
Antonio
The 66 carbine came from Tommy Rholes and was a Christmas gift from my wife almost 30 years ago. I did get a couple of guns from Norm many years ago, including this nice 73 in 44 caliber which I still have.
Burt that’s a Wonderful 73!
I do have a few left from Tommy Rholes that I like. Nothing from Norm Though.
Thanks for sharing.
Antonio
I received more info from Rob Kassab.
Page 3 it states the guns were carbines.
Page 6 states the cartridge case were the S&W American center fire for the 66.
Page 10 mentions the bushing that was used instead of the clapper.
Page 11 gives the Order # for the 1020 carbines as 4430. Shipped to Simeons dos Santos, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
Still no mention of caliber stamp
In John Parson’s book on the First Winchester on page 107 he mentions the carbines that were shipped to Brazil. He says these guns have an auxiliary serial number on the left side of the lower tang under the stock. A letter C then the auxiliary serial number. He also says Cody has an example in the collection.
I wonder if the marks are something other than a serial number like assembly numbers?
I have been following this thread with interest as I have a center fire 66 carbine. There is no caliber marking on the barrel and the bolt face does not look like an altered one. The gun is in excellent condition and does not look altered to my eye. I will take some photos of it this weekend and try to post them for you if I am able to do that
Chuck,
That’s more great information as many have contributed with bit’s and pieces of information as we’re learning more and more about the Mysteries that Surrounding the Calibers possibly used in the Model 66.
As time will tell I’m sure that more info. will come out.
Antonio
I looked at the gun at the shop again.
Serial #101199. No caliber mark on the barrel. Conversion has a bushing. Bore is rough but will clean up some.
1 Guest(s)
