Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Winchester Model 1866 Caliber
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 160
Member Since:
December 9, 2002
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
April 8, 2023 - 11:35 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

On another Forum there’s a Discussion going on as to the 1866 Rifle’s Caliber. As it’s well Documented as Winchester Repeating Arms First Rifle with total mfg. of approx. 170,101 from 1866-1899 and the .44 Henry Flat Rim Fire being it’s Original and Possibly only intended Cartridge. I was reading some speculation and it was mentioned in Madis Book that a .44 Caliber center Fire was possibly introduced at the end of production or even outside contract work was possibly done on the 3rd or 4th Model 1866. Looking for any Factual Clarification on this if Possible. It was stated that being the two Cartridges varied in length that not only the Firing pin would need to be changed or altered but the Breach/chamber would be different to accommodate a longer Cartridge. Also it was mentioned that the Caliber designated stamping on the 1866 is just a plain 44 with out mentioning Henry Flat or C.F.  So if Winchester did some work towards the end of their mfg. of the 1866 were their anything stating this? Wanting to hear from the Experts. Smile

Thanks,

Antonio

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1738
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
April 8, 2023 - 12:14 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

 Winchester made the 1866 to use the same cartridge as a Henry. Late in production a few showed up marked 44CF ?, meaning center fire. The cartridge was the same dimension as the rim fire only with a primer in the middle. The only change to the gun was the piston and striker, (firing pin). On the end of the piston a striker is threaded on with two points to impact the rim of the cartridge. In many cases guns were modified to center fire by filing off the two points and adding a pin or just welding a point on the end of the piston. Some work was quality, some was not. Conversion to CF is fast and simple but converting back usually requires changing the striker.

 As far as factory made center fire, I have seen two but never owned or studied one. Do not confuse 44-40 with 44 rim fire, different completely. I have heard people say the 44 CF cartridge was called 44 American. My only experience has been converting original 66 rim fire guns previously converted to center fire back to rim fire. T/R  

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 160
Member Since:
December 9, 2002
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
April 8, 2023 - 3:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TR,

Thanks for your reply. I most certainly won’t get the .44 Henry Flat and the 44-40 C.F. confused or mixed up in my mind or even thought process.

I do understand that the .44 Henry Flat was in the Henry Rifle that B. Tyler Henry invented and was used in the Model 1866.

According to George Madis he would he would dis assemble every one that he encountered as far as a C.F. Rifle in the Model 66 is concerned but he doesn’t explain or say how many that he had encountered as you have stated you’ve encountered two. Which I do find very interesting. I do understand that due to Factory Fire’s at times at Winchester or even due to records lost, discarded or simply not recorded there’s not a lot of information on these as far as being a Center Fire version and to How many possibly were manufactured by Winchester.

You also say that “Late in Production a Few showed up marked 44CF”. This is some of the information that I’m interested finding any documentation on if it exists.

I also appreciate how you described the firing Pin work at the Breach and being a screwed on the striker.

I’m hoping that others can weigh in also and we can learn more about this if it’s possible.Smile

Thanks,

Antonio

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4733
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
April 8, 2023 - 9:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

The cartridge on the right is a 44 CF for the 1866 center fire rifle.

I just had a 1866 center fire carbine in my hands this morning.  I don’t remember the serial number but it was a later production gun.  Most of these guns have come back from another country and are usually beat up.  This one not so much.

Henry-Cartridges.jpgImage EnlargerHenry-Rounds.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 160
Member Since:
December 9, 2002
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
April 9, 2023 - 11:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks Chuck, this further helps me to at least try to understand in my feeble mind. Lol

The Cartridge comparison pics explains a lot to me as far as the chamber issues.

It also helps me in understanding further what TR was explaining.

It also makes sense that the serial number was a later production number from what we understand.

We’ll probably never know actual production numbers due to the earlier statements regarding loss of records.

Antonio

Avatar
France
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 76
Member Since:
November 20, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
April 9, 2023 - 12:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi Antonio,

 

here is the description of the 44 Henry CF cartridge as made by SFM (Société Française de Munition, ex Gevelot) latr XIXth century early XXth for export to South America where this roud was used in modified 1866 Winchester and army revolver i.440 Nagant (the opther name of this round)

It is strictly the same dimensionally with the 44 Henry RF

Sorry all dimensions are metric Laugh

Image Enlarger

Avatar
France
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 76
Member Since:
November 20, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
April 9, 2023 - 12:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Here is the file for 44 Henry RF from the same source for comarison (and the gun chamber dimensions)

 

Image Enlarger

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1738
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
April 9, 2023 - 12:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

   freebird1968,

 Thanks for the drawings, it helps to know for sure. T/R

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 160
Member Since:
December 9, 2002
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
April 9, 2023 - 12:59 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks Freebird,

I agree with TR as it really does help to try to further understand.

I notice on the drawing’s that you posted at the bottom dates we’re 1919 on the .44 R.F. and 1923 on the .44 C.F.

In further research and interest on my part I was looking in my latest Book Cartridges of the World 13TH Edition (2012)

as on page 146 it states, under the .44 Henry Center Fire Flat, “that in 1891, 1,020 Model 1866 Winchester Rifles were chambered for this Cartridge and Shipped to Brazil”.

I’m assuming that this information is correct and wondering where this information came from for the Author to print it!

Antonio

Avatar
France
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 76
Member Since:
November 20, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
April 9, 2023 - 2:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hi Antonio,

the drawings were remade by SFM from the original Gevelot plans, dating from the end of XIXth century.

The date shows that in the 1920’s both cartridges were still currently made by SFM for export, cheify to Brasil (1866’s were only marginally used in France, and mainly in 1870-71 during the Franco-Prussian war).

Thare are two known orders from Brasil for 1866 carbines.
One in 1872 for 1000 carbines in Henry RF that were later and locally modified in CF.

A second one in 1892 for another 1000 (or 1020 according to second hand sources) that may have been supplied by Winchester in 44 Henry CF.

All of these I believe come from Herbert G. Houze book(-s) on Winchester, but I can’t as yet confirm where. May be copies of these contracts might be available from Cody ?

 

Gilles

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4360
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
April 9, 2023 - 2:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The fires at Winchester were not accidental fires but rather they burned old records to make room for new records.

Bob

IMG_1898.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_1900.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_1904.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
France
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 76
Member Since:
November 20, 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
April 9, 2023 - 2:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I’ve also found this discussion on another forum on this topic.
Message 11/13 is from Mike Carrick and confirm the existence of an order from Brazil for 1000 44 Henry CF 1866.

He might want to chime in and cofirm if there are any more information available.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/winchester-mod-1866/28401/11

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 160
Member Since:
December 9, 2002
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
April 9, 2023 - 3:07 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks Bob,

1873man said
The fires at Winchester were not accidental fires but rather they burned old records to make room for new records.

Bob

IMG_1898.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_1900.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_1904.jpgImage Enlarger

  

I didn’t realize this information as I can only imagine the Tons of Paperwork Winchester dealt with on a Daily Basis as such a Large Corporation and the Staffing that it would require. I’ve never seen those articles or pics before.Smile

Antonio

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 160
Member Since:
December 9, 2002
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
April 9, 2023 - 3:09 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

freebird1968 said
I’ve also found this discussion on another forum on this topic.

Message 11/13 is from Mike Carrick and confirm the existence of an order from Brazil for 1000 44 Henry CF 1866.

He might want to shine in and cofirm if there are any more information available.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/winchester-mod-1866/28401/11

  

Gilles,

That’s interesting information also on the ICCF.

Thank You,Smile

Antonio

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4397
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
April 9, 2023 - 3:11 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Very interesting and educational thread.  I’ve never owned a Henry or Model 1866 (or even a cartridge).  But, I’ve been on the fringes of them since I was in my late teens.  I recall looking at a very high condition Henry nearly 50 years ago that a dealer I knew had.  I can’t recall the exact price but it was a very small fraction of what they sell of now.  

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 562
Member Since:
April 1, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
April 9, 2023 - 4:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

steve004 said
Very interesting and educational thread.  I’ve never owned a Henry or Model 1866 (or even a cartridge).  But, I’ve been on the fringes of them since I was in my late teens.  I recall looking at a very high condition Henry nearly 50 years ago that a dealer I knew had.  I can’t recall the exact price but it was a very small fraction of what they sell of now.  

  

Too bad Winchester could not have held off on records destruction a little longer – modern technology would have made it simple to keep lots of record information without taking up all that space. Steve, I am surprised  you never had a Henry or 66 – good one’s that are original and correct have always been hard to find and expensive. They were never my favorite but back when I was a serious collector, I did have one Henry, one 66 rifle and one 66 carbine – the carbine is all that I have left – it is #76343 and too early for the availability of records. Note the wood to metal fit on this gun – this is how Winchester made them!

66cbn.JPGImage Enlarger66butt.JPGImage Enlarger66rcvgate.JPGImage Enlarger66ring.JPGImage Enlarger66stk.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4733
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
April 9, 2023 - 5:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Real Nice 66.  I have a rifle but may have to see if I can buy the center fire carbine I was looking at yesterday.  What do you call the rear sight?  I just saw a first model 73 carbine with the same rear sight.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 562
Member Since:
April 1, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
April 9, 2023 - 5:42 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Chuck said
Real Nice 66.  I have a rifle but may have to see if I can buy the center fire carbine I was looking at yesterday.  What do you call the rear sight?  I just saw a first model 73 carbine with the same rear sight.

  

I have always heard this rear site on the carbine referred to as the “L-type” and I believe it was used on early carbines until about  serial number 155,000. After that the “ladder-type” rear sight was used.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4397
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
April 9, 2023 - 6:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Burt Humphrey said

steve004 said

Very interesting and educational thread.  I’ve never owned a Henry or Model 1866 (or even a cartridge).  But, I’ve been on the fringes of them since I was in my late teens.  I recall looking at a very high condition Henry nearly 50 years ago that a dealer I knew had.  I can’t recall the exact price but it was a very small fraction of what they sell of now.  

  

Too bad Winchester could not have held off on records destruction a little longer – modern technology would have made it simple to keep lots of record information without taking up all that space. Steve, I am surprised  you never had a Henry or 66 – good one’s that are original and correct have always been hard to find and expensive. They were never my favorite but back when I was a serious collector, I did have one Henry, one 66 rifle and one 66 carbine – the carbine is all that I have left – it is #76343 and too early for the availability of records. Note the wood to metal fit on this gun – this is how Winchester made them!

66cbn.JPGImage Enlarger66butt.JPGImage Enlarger66rcvgate.JPGImage Enlarger66ring.JPGImage Enlarger66stk.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Beautiful carbine Bert!  Past birthday present?  I do recall when I was in my earliest collecting years, firearms as old as the Henry, 1866 and 1873 were not of strong appeal to me.  My focus started a bit later – 1886’s, 1892’s, 1894’s and 1895’s.  

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 11088
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
April 9, 2023 - 6:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

1873man said
The fires at Winchester were not accidental fires but rather they burned old records to make room for new records.

Bob

IMG_1898.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_1900.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_1904.jpgImage Enlarger

  

Bob,

Thanks for posting the photos.  I have been trying to educate Winchester collectors for years that there were no “accidental” fires that resulted in the loss of historical records.

To provide further enlightenment, the firearm records that were burned were from the time period of May 1907 through the 1950s.  It was in 1907 that Winchester stopped using the old style “ledger book” record keeping and shifted to 3×5 index cards.  Fortunately, Edwin Pugsley had all of the older original ledger book records moved from the factory to the museum in late 1919 or early 1920, and that is why they survived and eventually made the trip west to Cody.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6631
TXGunNut: 5267
Chuck: 4733
steve004: 4397
1873man: 4360
Big Larry: 2380
twobit: 2326
mrcvs: 1803
TR: 1738
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 13031
Posts: 113952

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1819
Members: 9002
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation