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Just think of all the cool documents we would be able to have with our guns. Some guns would of been owned by some famous people. I posted this a while back but this is what we could of had. A return and repair order explained.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Just think of all the cool documents we would be able to have with our guns. Some guns would of been owned by some famous people. I posted this a while back but this is what we could of had. A return and repair order explained.Bob
Thanks for sharing this Bob – made my day. Amazing what you got done for fourteen bucks at the turn of the century. Just out of curiosity, are you now the owner of this deluxe Model 1876?
Burt,
No, I saw it at Tulsa in Nov. with a fresh bubba restore. I guess since they had the R&R letter it gave them the liberty to try to make it look new. If the gun was in original condition (as redone at Winchester ) it would of been a no brainer. Sold for 10k.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
Offline
Every chance I get I tell our friends at Cody I think there’s a box full of repair shop log books in their archives. I’m wrong, of course, but I truly think there are “missing” documents saved by employees. We know some were, I have little doubt there are more out there. I just hope they don’t get tossed by an employee’s unknowing descendants when they turn up.
Mike
Chuck said
The cartridge on the right is a 44 CF for the 1866 center fire rifle.I just had a 1866 center fire carbine in my hands this morning. I don’t remember the serial number but it was a later production gun. Most of these guns have come back from another country and are usually beat up. This one not so much.
Is there a way to tell if a center fire conversion was done by Winchester at the factory or if it was done by a gunsmith and if so are the non-factory conversions less desirable and therefore less valuable. Earlier in this post, TR noted some were stamped 44CF – seems it would be important to note the conversion whether done by Winchester or a gunsmith.
Online
Burt,
The two I saw were late guns marked 44CF. At that time I placed less value on them than rim fire guns because they were late guns. The markings on the barrel appeared factory. If these guns were sent to South America then I would put a lesser value than one from the American West, not just me but the market likes Cowboy and Indian.
Never looked inside the CF guns but Winchester clearly marked the barrel. The two guns were not together but during the same time period. That said, it was 20 years ago from memory. The guy to talk to on the subject is Norm Vegely. T/R
Burt Humphrey said
Chuck said
The cartridge on the right is a 44 CF for the 1866 center fire rifle.
I just had a 1866 center fire carbine in my hands this morning. I don’t remember the serial number but it was a later production gun. Most of these guns have come back from another country and are usually beat up. This one not so much.
Is there a way to tell if a center fire conversion was done by Winchester at the factory or if it was done by a gunsmith and if so are the non-factory conversions less desirable and therefore less valuable. Earlier in this post, TR noted some were stamped 44CF – seems it would be important to note the conversion whether done by Winchester or a gunsmith.
Maybe. The striker is different on the CF. There is a small hole in the center and only the tip of the firing pin is visible when the bolt is rearward. The tip moves forward just before the bolt is closed. The absence of the 2 strikers is very obvious. On a rim fire bolt the end of the firing pin is larger, flat and is threaded so the striker can be screwed on. A modified gun would have the 2 strikers ground off and a pin of some sort would have to be attached to the end of the firing pin shaft.
I wish I could take one of the CF guns apart. I did not look at the caliber marking of the one at the shop but I will. I will see if I can take a picture of the bolt face.
Here is a picture of the old firing pin from my Henry. The left end is broken off where the threads for the striker should be. What looks like a blemish about 1″ from the left end is actually a dip that is machined into the pin. If you look to the right the large piece is the bolt. There is a 1/16″ hole on the top. The extractor is laying on the magnet. When assembled the extractor lays on top of the bolt and a pin goes through the bolt and the extractor. The dip in the firing pin is clearance for this pin.
Antonio said
On another Forum there’s a Discussion going on as to the 1866 Rifle’s Caliber. As it’s well Documented as Winchester Repeating Arms First Rifle with total mfg. of approx. 170,101 from 1866-1899 and the .44 Henry Flat Rim Fire being it’s Original and Possibly only intended Cartridge. I was reading some speculation and it was mentioned in Madis Book that a .44 Caliber center Fire was possibly introduced at the end of production or even outside contract work was possibly done on the 3rd or 4th Model 1866. Looking for any Factual Clarification on this if Possible. It was stated that being the two Cartridges varied in length that not only the Firing pin would need to be changed or altered but the Breach/chamber would be different to accommodate a longer Cartridge. Also it was mentioned that the Caliber designated stamping on the 1866 is just a plain 44 with out mentioning Henry Flat or C.F. So if Winchester did some work towards the end of their mfg. of the 1866 were their anything stating this? Wanting to hear from the Experts.Thanks,
Antonio
It does not appear you have gotten an answer to your question – I also am curious regarding the 66 conversions. Since there are lots of late 66’s for which the records are available, has anyone seen one for which a conversion is noted in the ledger or which indicates a R&R which could possibly mean a conversion was done. It seems to me if Winchester did a conversion either prior to leaving the factory or as a R&R, they would have stamped the gun CF. I have handled very few 66’s so I am ignorant about them and I have never seen one with the CF stamp. Personally, I would not want a conversion if there was no documentation to support the conversion being factory – not that a good gunsmith couldn’t do a quality job.
Ok, I just found this in The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1966 by George Watrous. Page 14.
“In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 “Henry” center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil. In making up this lot of guns it was necessary to change the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breach pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer. All other components were the same as previously used on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rim fire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel.”
It does not explain what the firing pin was but my assumption is that is was an 1873 firing pin. As far as what is meant by “chambering of the barrel” I have no clue? The breech pin snapper is the threaded part with the strikers. I am sure that these guns were accompanied by a large amount of cartridges too.
Chuck said
Ok, I just found this in The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1966 by George Watrous. Page 14.“In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 “Henry” center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil. In making up this lot of guns it was necessary to change the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breach pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer. All other components were the same as previously used on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rim fire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel.”
It does not explain what the firing pin was but my assumption is that is was an 1873 firing pin. As far as what is meant by “chambering of the barrel” I have no clue? The breech pin snapper is the threaded part with the strikers. I am sure that these guns were accompanied by a large amount of cartridges too.
Does anyone know if Winchester stamped the guns which they converted with a CF to identify the conversion? Is the center fire carbine you said you handled yesterday stamped as a CF?
Burt Humphrey said
Is the center fire carbine you said you handled yesterday stamped as a CF?
I didn’t look but I will. I will also try to take a picture of the bolt face and write down the serial #. During this time period Winchester had many foreign contracts. I wonder if any of these went elsewhere too?
Chuck said
Ok, I just found this in The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1966 by George Watrous. Page 14.“In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 “Henry” center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil. In making up this lot of guns it was necessary to change the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breach pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer. All other components were the same as previously used on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rim fire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel.”
It does not explain what the firing pin was but my assumption is that is was an 1873 firing pin. As far as what is meant by “chambering of the barrel” I have no clue? The breech pin snapper is the threaded part with the strikers. I am sure that these guns were accompanied by a large amount of cartridges too.
Chuck – the same information from the Watrous book is also in the Henshaw book, “The history of Winchester firearms 1866-1992”. It says “rifles” so does that mean no carbines or muskets were converted – or just not for the order which went to Brazil?
Just found this in the Bill West book: On page 3-11 he is discussing what he calls the intermediate variety, approximate serial #’s 25100-102000 – he states “guns in this range frequently found with breech pins converted to center fire. This was normally done after the original shipping”.
Burt Humphrey said
Chuck said
Ok, I just found this in The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1966 by George Watrous. Page 14.
“In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 “Henry” center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil. In making up this lot of guns it was necessary to change the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breach pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer. All other components were the same as previously used on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rim fire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel.”
It does not explain what the firing pin was but my assumption is that is was an 1873 firing pin. As far as what is meant by “chambering of the barrel” I have no clue? The breech pin snapper is the threaded part with the strikers. I am sure that these guns were accompanied by a large amount of cartridges too.
Chuck – the same information from the Watrous book is also in the Henshaw book, “The history of Winchester firearms 1866-1992”. It says “rifles” so does that mean no carbines or muskets were converted – or just not for the order which went to Brazil?
Just found this in the Bill West book: On page 3-11 he is discussing what he calls the intermediate variety, approximate serial #’s 25100-102000 – he states “guns in this range frequently found with breech pins converted to center fire. This was normally done after the original shipping”.
Chuck – in the West book, page 5, he states” the vast majority of M1866 rifles and carbines were produced in .44 Henry rimfire only. A small number of mostly late production rifles and carbines were manufactured to use a centerfire cartridge by the addition of a 3rd firing pin protrusion at the center of the bolt face…These conversions used the .44 Henry flat or the .44 Henry centerfire cartridges and not the 44-40 (.44 Winchester Centerfire) cartridges. Attempting to shoot the .44-40 in the Model 1866 is dangerous.
Burt Humphrey said
Chuck – the same information from the Watrous book is also in the Henshaw book, “The history of Winchester firearms 1866-1992”. It says “rifles” so does that mean no carbines or muskets were converted – or just not for the order which went to Brazil?
Just found this in the Bill West book: On page 3-11 he is discussing what he calls the intermediate variety, approximate serial #’s 25100-102000 – he states “guns in this range frequently found with breech pins converted to center fire. This was normally done after the original shipping”.
Well, if Winchester had the bushings in stock or you had a gunsmith make the bushing all you would have to do was get an 1873 firing pin. I have heard for years these CF 66’s went to more than Brazil but I have never looked for this info before. I have had the opportunity to buy the West books but haven’t. Never saw the Henshaw book. Winchester Bob did tell me that the Henry firing pin was a different length than the 66. Obviously the 73 is the same as the 66.
Burt Humphrey said
Antonio said
On another Forum there’s a Discussion going on as to the 1866 Rifle’s Caliber. As it’s well Documented as Winchester Repeating Arms First Rifle with total mfg. of approx. 170,101 from 1866-1899 and the .44 Henry Flat Rim Fire being it’s Original and Possibly only intended Cartridge. I was reading some speculation and it was mentioned in Madis Book that a .44 Caliber center Fire was possibly introduced at the end of production or even outside contract work was possibly done on the 3rd or 4th Model 1866. Looking for any Factual Clarification on this if Possible. It was stated that being the two Cartridges varied in length that not only the Firing pin would need to be changed or altered but the Breach/chamber would be different to accommodate a longer Cartridge. Also it was mentioned that the Caliber designated stamping on the 1866 is just a plain 44 with out mentioning Henry Flat or C.F. So if Winchester did some work towards the end of their mfg. of the 1866 were their anything stating this? Wanting to hear from the Experts.
Thanks,
Antonio
It does not appear you have gotten an answer to your question – I also am curious regarding the 66 conversions. Since there are lots of late 66’s for which the records are available, has anyone seen one for which a conversion is noted in the ledger or which indicates a R&R which could possibly mean a conversion was done. It seems to me if Winchester did a conversion either prior to leaving the factory or as a R&R, they would have stamped the gun CF. I have handled very few 66’s so I am ignorant about them and I have never seen one with the CF stamp. Personally, I would not want a conversion if there was no documentation to support the conversion being factory – not that a good gunsmith couldn’t do a quality job.
Burt, We’re a lot Farther ahead with the information that I’ve ever seen. Very Interesting.
Freebird 68 Had some interesting information that he added from the I.A.A. Cartridge Collectors as Mike Carrick was in Brazil on a Trip and posted on that Forum in May of 2018 an Order of 1000 C.F. Carbines we’re ordered from Winchester and it was suggested the .44S&W American be used but Winchester most certainly did not want S&W on their Firearm designating a Caliber, Hence the inception in 1891 of the .44 Henry Center Fire Flat. In 1891 I’m pretty sure that the serial #167865 was the earliest mfg. by Winchester in the Model 1866. So 1866’s we’re serial numbered after that serial number as has been printed.
Antonio
So, how do collectors feel about owning a 66 rifle or carbine that has been converted to center fire but is not marked/stamped CF and for which nothing in the records indicate it left the factory a center fire. I have always tried to stay away from guns that have been “messed with”. But, maybe a center fire conversion to a gun in the serial number range where we understand some were converted and if properly done would not deter some from owning it. If I was a 66 collector I might want one of these fairly rare variants – would one be worth less because of an undocumented conversion? I would still like to see a photo of a CF marked 66 and better yet, a Cody letter for a 66 with a factory conversion. I will just be sticking with my single carbine and won’t be adding any more.
In Les Quick’s book “The Henry Rifle” page 202 he talks about Henry’s converted to center fire. T/R
November 7, 2015
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Burt Humphrey said
So, how do collectors feel about owning a 66 rifle or carbine that has been converted to center fire but is not marked/stamped CF and for which nothing in the records indicate it left the factory a center fire. I have always tried to stay away from guns that have been “messed with”. But, maybe a center fire conversion to a gun in the serial number range where we understand some were converted and if properly done would not deter some from owning it. If I was a 66 collector I might want one of these fairly rare variants – would one be worth less because of an undocumented conversion? I would still like to see a photo of a CF marked 66 and better yet, a Cody letter for a 66 with a factory conversion. I will just be sticking with my single carbine and won’t be adding any more.
It’s a rhetorical question for me as I have no plans to acquire a Model 1866 in any configuration. I think it would depend on the intentions of the collector. As a collector who loves shooting old Winchesters I’d be more interested in the CF as there’s a decent chance I’d be able to make ammo for it. I don’t think the purist collector would be much interested in an undocumented conversion and a range trip wouldn’t mean much to them. That would be fine with the shooter/collector as it might make the CF guns a bit more affordable. As far as a factory CF gun I’d consider myself fortunate to be able to examine one at arm’s length.
Mike
Chuck said
Ok, I just found this in The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1966 by George Watrous. Page 14.“In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 “Henry” center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil. In making up this lot of guns it was necessary to change the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breach pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer. All other components were the same as previously used on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rim fire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel.”
It does not explain what the firing pin was but my assumption is that is was an 1873 firing pin. As far as what is meant by “chambering of the barrel” I have no clue? The breech pin snapper is the threaded part with the strikers. I am sure that these guns were accompanied by a large amount of cartridges too.
Chuck,
The conversion George Watrous talks about is far superior to the ones I have seen and converted. The 1866 rim fire with a piston and striker is prone to corrode and accumulate power residue between the striker and bolt, holding it forward and causing accidental discharge when closing the breech. I have seen several that needed to have the piston striker area cleaned to make it move properly. This has not been a problem in modern day because no one shoots them. Oh, sorry except you. This is not a problem with the 73 because it uses a firing pin and retractor eliminating the area behind the striker. I would assume Winchester’s conversion in 1891 would be a 73 type.
I would not stand in front of a 66 with a striker when you close the bolt unless everything is clean and free. T/R
TR said
In Les Quick’s book “The Henry Rifle” page 202 he talks about Henry’s converted to center fire. T/R
I have never heard that before – is there any indication whether the conversion was done at the factory after Oliver Winchester bought the company or after they left the factory by gunsmith’s? The old guys who would have knowledge about this are all gone. A good source would be Norm Vagley – he is at all the major gun shows. In a previous post you had mentioned a stamp/mark to designate a conversion – do you have a photo of one of these. And, as noted before, I would love to see a Cody letter noting a conversion to center fire. In Antonio’s original post he mentioned possible contract work by Winchester to do the conversion – if anyone has documentation regarding this please share.
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