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Winchester 92 engraved wiht Mexican motivs
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March 21, 2022 - 4:38 pm
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First of all, thanks to all the collaborators of this wonderful foro.
Let me introduce myself, I am a retired Engenier, and live in Cádiz, a small city founded three thousand year ago in Spain. Its the lowest city in Europe, close the Gibraltar strait.
I´m a hunter for small and big games, and now retired, I spend a lot of time shooting and competing with muzzleload guns. Mi prefered gun is the revolver.
In 2016 I bought an original 1873 rifle S/N 175923 in a very good condition, and began my love to the Lever Action Winchester rifles.
Now, I´m the lucky ownwer of at least one original rifle of all the LA models, 1866,1873, 1876, 1866, 1892, 1894 and 1895.
Today I´ll like to show you my last adquisition, a model 92 engraved. In next posts, I´ll show you my other rifles.
I think that the engraved are not made by Winchester, but really are pretty well. The rifle is disabled with two holes in the lower part of the gun.
I´ll appreciate your opinion about it, and if possible more information about the engraved.
Somebody could give me an approximate valoration?

Thank you very much in advance an my best regards for all the menbers.

Grizzly

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March 23, 2022 - 3:41 pm
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Hola Miguel,

As a guest member on this forum you can not post images.   If you will send them to me at [email protected] I will be happy to put them up for you.

Todo lo mejor,

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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March 23, 2022 - 4:39 pm
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Thank you very much Michael, but I think the photos are posted. Don´t you can see the images correctly?

Once you push on the icon, a square is open, push another time on the icon at the left rigt icon inside the square and the photo will appear.

However, I accept your kind offer and I send the photos to your email.

I´ll be grateful if anybody could give me your opinion about the engraves. I know that it has two differents Escudo Nacional de Mexico, but I don’t know the relationship between them.

Thank alls.

Miguel Angel

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March 23, 2022 - 5:01 pm
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Bienvenidos Miguel

I am happy to welcome another European to the forum. You are in very good hands here. However, it’s even better when you’re registered with a membership ;-).

Greetings from Germany

 

Stefan

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March 23, 2022 - 5:02 pm
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Miguel, I can’t open them either.  Send them to Michael for posting.

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March 23, 2022 - 5:15 pm
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Here are your images.  Definitely not factory original engraving and the barrel and magazine have been shortened.

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

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March 23, 2022 - 6:59 pm
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Michael, thank you for your help.

Really I dont´t think the barrel has been shortened. The barrel has the same length, 21,5 inches , that my other Winchester 92 with octogonal barrel in caliber 38-40 with S/N 884411.

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March 23, 2022 - 7:37 pm
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Miguel Angel Sarmiento Mediavilla said
Michael, thank you for your help.

Really I dont´t think the barrel has been shortened. The barrel has the same length, 21,5 inches , that my other Winchester 92 with octogonal barrel in caliber 38-40 with S/N 884411.  

Glad to help Miguel,

If you include the threaded portion in the receiver then the full barrel length is 22 inches which would be difficult to do from an original 24 inch barrel without ending up with an unfilled magazine retaining band dovetail on the underside of the barrel.  Is there any sign of the barrel address stamp on the top of the barrel in front of the rear sight?  It should be identical to this one.

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Can you check the distance from the muzzle to the front sight dovetail and the magazine retaining band compared to these images.  Sorry that the rule is not metric!

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Michael

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March 23, 2022 - 9:25 pm
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Michael, excuse me for a mistake in my previous post, I have not any rule in inches, and I translated wrong from metric to inches. The full length including the threaded portion is 20 inches. The dimension from the end of the barrel to the dovetail are the same that you show in your photo.

No, it has not any address stamped on the top of the barrel in front of the rear sight, only is stamped in the back, close to the hammer.

Grateful

Miguel Angel

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March 23, 2022 - 9:48 pm
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That is one pretty rifle!  

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March 24, 2022 - 10:45 am
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Thanks Manuel, maybe you can explain to me what is the relationship of the two engraved National Shields of Mexico.

The shield engraved on the right of the rifle was the official one from 1846 to 1863, and after that from 1867 to 1880, and the one on the right, official from 1934 to 1968.

Is there any relationship between both?

 

Miguel Angel

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March 24, 2022 - 3:51 pm
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Miguel Angel Sarmiento Mediavilla said
Thanks Manuel, maybe you can explain to me what is the relationship of the two engraved National Shields of Mexico.

The shield engraved on the right of the rifle was the official one from 1846 to 1863, and after that from 1867 to 1880, and the one on the right, official from 1934 to 1968.

Is there any relationship between both?

 

Miguel Angel  

I can’t help you on your question other then the customer wanted those Shields for one reason or another.   Maybe the previous owner had relationships with those governments.  Either way its definitely one of a kind!

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March 24, 2022 - 5:48 pm
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Miguel –

I didn’t see that you posted the serial umber of the engraved M1892.  I am just curious if it is within the Museum, “letterable” range.

When you ask about valuation, are asking what it would be worth in the U.S.?

And you mentioned the rifle has been, “disabled” by two holes – where are they exactly?

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March 24, 2022 - 6:15 pm
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Miguel Angel Sarmiento Mediavilla said

Is there any relationship between both?

 

Miguel Angel  

Merely different artistic interpretations of the same basic symbol, just as the American eagle can be depicted with wings folded, outstretched, & in other postures.  More unusual than the Aztec eagle, which is used for all sorts of decorative purposes in Mexico, is the jaguar image, which was a symbol principally important in Mayan art.

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March 24, 2022 - 6:52 pm
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Miguel Angel Sarmiento Mediavilla said
Michael, thank you for your help.

Really I dont´t think the barrel has been shortened. The barrel has the same length, 21,5 inches , that my other Winchester 92 with octogonal barrel in caliber 38-40 with S/N 884411.  

No apology necessary Miguel,

In looking again at your photos and your information that the barrel is 20 inches long I feel that it is in fact most likely the original barrel for the rifle.  The caliber stamp appears on the left side of the barrel.  At the time the rifle was manufactured the common position was on top of the barrel.  The stamp is on the left side because the rear sight dovetail was positioned closer to the receiver face by Winchester to lengthen the sight aperture on 20 inch barreled rifles and the sight would have covered the caliber marking if it were located on top.  We will have to assume that 330385 is the correct serial number and was engraved on the barrel to not interfere with the engraving on the bottom of the receiver.

Michael

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March 24, 2022 - 8:43 pm
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Steve, yes, I´d like to know the valuation in U.S., unfortunately, this kind of rifle has not market in Spain.

The rifle is disabled with two holes in the lower part of the barrel, close to the action. I´ll send you a photo, and please, could be so kind to upload it in a post?

The deactivation is certified for the official authority in Spain (The Official Gun Bank of Proof, BOPE), and so, it is not considered a weapon in Spain, it´s considered as a ¨broom¨.

Are the rules the same in U.S.? A disabled gun in U.S. is considered a weapon or the sell is free?

 

Miguel Angel

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March 24, 2022 - 9:26 pm
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Miguel,

Here is the image of the underside of the barrel.  That looks like a “disaster waiting to happen” as we say!  Once a projectile is fired and clear the first hole as it travels down the barrel all of the pressure is going to blast out of the hole in the underside of the barrel and could cause severe damage to the wood fore end and the hand holding it!!!!

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March 24, 2022 - 9:51 pm
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Oh, yes, in Spain is considered a ¨gun unusable for firing¨. Don´t use you in U.S. this kind of method? It is consider this gun as a weapon in U.S. or has other type of consideration?

Miguel Angel

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March 24, 2022 - 11:18 pm
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Miguel Angel Sarmiento Mediavilla said
Steve, yes, I´d like to know the valuation in U.S., unfortunately, this kind of rifle has not market in Spain.

 

Miguel Angel  

 Miguel,

 Unless your gun has some documented history or was owned by someone famous it’s value will be based on what it is.

  As a Winchester collector I see a gun with a re-applied serial number, deactivated in a repulsive manner, engraved non factory, and other non factory work. The value of the gun is display only, wall hanger. If you can come up with the original serial number and it is in a serial number range that can be lettered by the Cody Museum, that could affect the value. I would encourage you to pursue it’s history.

 It’s a eye catching piece, keep it and enjoy looking at it. T/R

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March 24, 2022 - 11:45 pm
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The deactivation aspect would have a dramatic negative impact on the value here.  I believe however, that given this rifle was made post 1898, despite the holes in the barrel, it would still be considered a modern rifle and subject to all of the laws that govern modern rifles here in the U.S.  It appears the rifle could be restored to be a functioning rifle by replacing the barrel.  You would of course lose the engraving on the barrel if that were done.  I agree that it is basically a wall hanger.  

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