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For ongoing research purposes, I am cataloguing and indexing some of the Winchester News/Record/Life/Target factory newsletters and happened to see an article in the Winchester Target newsletter from January/February 1961 on the dates of manufacture for the Model 73 with a serial # by year chart (up to the year 1900). It might be possible that Winchester used the (now lost) 1873 early polishing room records to determine the dates for the 1961 employee article since the serial numbers are very specific and they are not the same as the existing warehouse records. They also do not correspond exactly with what is on the WACA website look-up nor the later Madis published numbers.
Since neither the BBCotW nor Pauline Muerelle have the 1873 polishing room records for Model 1873 serial #’s 1-272800 this may be a valid, accurate reference, possibly based upon records no longer available but I will leave it up to you lever-action collectors to decide if it has merit. I apologize if this article has already been known and discussed.
Best Regards,
JWA
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Hmmm…
I have to question the accuracy of that document as it does not agree with the Factory Polishing Room records for the years 1882 through the 1900.
Per the PR records, these are the actual year ending serial numbers for the Model 1873;
1882 – 110690
1883 – 145734
1884 – 172356
1885 – 199535
1886 – 225145
1887 – 255000
1888 – 287605
1889 – 326256
1890 – 369272
1891 – 408953
1892 – 444922
1893 – 471591
1894 – 486252
1895 – 501397
1896 – 508966
1897 – 515792
1898 – 525750
1899 – 541204
1900 – 555833
Of further note, there were more than just three Model 1873 rifles manufactured in the year 1873. The serial numbers for the year 1874 did not begin with No. 4.
The photo below is the actual PR record book page showing the final antique Model 1873 serial number (on December 30th, 1898). The image was provided to me by David Kennedy when he was still the CFM Curator, and I was researching the bona fide “antique” serial number cut-off numbers for all of Winchester models that I published in the First edition of the Red Book back in 2011.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert,
Hence my caveat “might” and “may” statements. Makes you wonder where the information in the article actually came from?
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Bert,
Is there polishing room data from day 1 for the 73.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Bert,Is there polishing room data from day 1 for the 73.
Bob
No, there is not. The PR records for the Model 1873 are very convoluted in the beginning and did not get standardized until 1883. For the .32 caliber guns, the records begin in late August 1882 at s/n 99801. For the Muskets, the PR records begin in September 1880 at s/n 61679. There were separate PR records for the early .38 caliber guns, the Carbines, the Rifles, and the Set Trigger guns (which begin in January 1881 at s/n 65036). It wasn’t until June 1888 that Winchester combined all of the PR dates & serial numbers into a single book (in the 273000 serial range).
For the early 1873s, the only source of information is the ledger records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
1873man said
Bert,
Is there polishing room data from day 1 for the 73.
Bob
No, there is not. The PR records for the Model 1873 are very convoluted in the beginning and did not get standardized until 1883. For the .32 caliber guns, the records begin in late August 1882 at s/n 99801. For the Muskets, the PR records begin in September 1880 at s/n 61679. There were separate PR records for the early .38 caliber guns, the Carbines, the Rifles, and the Set Trigger guns (which begin in January 1881 at s/n 65036). It wasn’t until June 1888 that Winchester combined all of the PR dates & serial numbers into a single book (in the 273000 serial range).
For the early 1873s, the only source of information is the ledger records.
Bert
Very interesting and helpful information – Thanks Bert!
Bert,
Why I ask is there is some notes in the McCracken Research where they show 38 (it looks like it was 39 and changed) 73’s made in 73. I counted 39 from the first 200 guns received date but If I poke serial numbers into WACA DOM I find 126 were made in 73.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Bert,Why I ask is there is some notes in the McCracken Research where they show 38 (it looks like it was 39 and changed) 73’s made in 73. I counted 39 from the first 200 guns received date but If I poke serial numbers into WACA DOM I find 126 were made in 73.
Bob
The problem with that note is that it doesn’t clarify whether they were counts of guns “Assembled” VS “Received in Warehouse” VS “Shipped From Warehouse”. And the note is written on the back side of a 1920s Engineering Department Time Ticket. So it is a note written in the 1920s. Then the question is, Where did the information come from? Which record that existed at that time was it pulled?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I’m guessing the same place I got virtually the same information. The ledger dates the guns entered the warehouse.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
I suspect that the true number actually “manufactured” in the year 1873 is going to be a moving target (pardon the pun) for the moment, but it most certainly was more than just the “3” alluded to in the document Jeff found and posted a copy of. That document stated that the year 1874 began with serial number 4, which we know is not accurate.
A trip to Cody and a detailed examination of the ledger records would tell you (us) exactly how many were received in the warehouse in the year 1873, and that would settle the question for most people. I suspect that it would only take 30 – 60 minutes to review all of the records needed to arrive at the true number.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I went through the first 200 in Gordon’s book and I came up with the same as the note, 2 in October, 4 in November and 33 in December. The note looks like it had 2 for October but was scribbled to look like 1. In the far left column they wrote in 1873 or 1974 to denote what year they were entered. At serial 61 they quite entering the year so I would assume there wasn’t any more 73 made guns. The problem with looking forward farther is you will eventually get the guns that were made in October of 74 and you can’t count them as 73 made guns.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I’m guessing the same place I got virtually the same information. The ledger dates the guns entered the warehouse.
Most likely Possible. Then again in 1920 they likely or possibly could of still had all of the Polishing Room Records along with the Order Forms that would have matched up with the Order #s that are noted in the Warehouse Shipping records.
A lot of published sources have a variable amount of serials noted. If I recall Watrous has 19 noted in 1873.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
1873man said
I’m guessing the same place I got virtually the same information. The ledger dates the guns entered the warehouse.
Most likely Possible. Then again in 1920 they likely or possibly could of still had all of the Polishing Room Records along with the Order Forms that would have matched up with the Order #s that are noted in the Warehouse Shipping records.
A lot of published sources have a variable amount of serials noted. If I recall Watrous has 19 noted in 1873.
Maverick
The answer to this question could readily be answered by conducting a relatively quick & easy review/survey of the warehouse ledger records. I suspect that it would only require examining the first 300 – 500 records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Alright lets get into the weeds and spell this out.
This all depends on how you look at it.
By my interpretation and count looking at the first 200 serials, I observe the following.
40 Guns between serials #1 & #61 were “Received in Warehouse in the Year 1873″.
Received in Warehouse by Month – Sept. – 1, Oct. – 2, Nov. – 4, Dec. – 33 — Total 40
Of these 40 Guns between serials #1 & #61 only 18 are listed as “Sold in the Year 1873”. Everything else is sold later.
These 40 Guns were Sold from Warehouse by the Month:
Sept. – 1, Oct. – 2, Nov. – 4, Dec. -11 (end of year total 18), Jan. -18, May -1 (#34), Aug. – 1 (#61), Oct. – 1 (#35), Nov. – 1 (#8) — Total 40
All other serial numbers within the #1 & #61 range were Received in Warehouse after January 1, 1874. All other serials past #61 were Received in Warehouse after January 1, 1874.
None of this accounts for how many serial numbers were applied onto lower tangs in the year 1873 (polishing records?). Another missing piece of information that would be most helpful, as with almost all records, is the corresponding Order # information. In my mind it would be interesting to know how many and when these various orders were actually placed in the year 1873.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Last night I was looking at the Gordon book records and spotted that one entered in Sept. I don’t know how I missed it. I was looking at serial 2 and 3 and trying to figure out the shape of the barrels they had. They were dittoed from #1 which looks to have been changed to a musket. I can see signs that writing was erased in line 1.
I would count the guns entered the ledger in 1873 as the gun made in 1873. In talking with Bert there is no Polishing room records for that time period so the ledger is all we got to go by. Without polishing room records we can’t draw a line between the any of the guns entered in 1874.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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